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Time consuming aspect of a game

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Sat, 05/16/2015 - 05:08
X3M
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When deciding on what to write today. THIS or another game that I am working on. I knew that that other game would have THIS problem as well.

THIS has also been discussed before on the forum. However, I only had an improvement.

It is about my target system.
Most of my games play out on a hexagon field. And most of those hexagon field games have dots in the centre of each hexagon, since those same games have terrain fields that can block sight of units/pawns. The vision is determined by looking at the line between the 2 dots. Any field that lies under this line is effective 100% and any field that has a side under the line is 50%, corners have 0% effect.

Now, a ruler could be used. But that got in the way of the placed units and vice versa. And sometimes you could not see clearly what some fields are.
Then a pin with a rope was used (I got that idea from this forum), and we got it working. However, this left some space open for in game debates and trying for cheating. Especially when the rope goes across the entire board. It also is still time consuming for a big part. It is a hassle too. The boards are big, and the little player in our group has to climb up the table because he doesn't trust us adults in doing it right.

Ok, to make things short.
I want to get rid of this system, and have an ingenious way of dealing with this vision test.
If I have to add 1 or 2 little rules for dealing with vision, that would be ok.

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Sat, 05/16/2015 - 12:59
#1
radioactivemouse
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X3M wrote:When deciding on

X3M wrote:
When deciding on what to write today. THIS or another game that I am working on. I knew that that other game would have THIS problem as well.

THIS has also been discussed before on the forum. However, I only had an improvement.

It is about my target system.
Most of my games play out on a hexagon field. And most of those hexagon field games have dots in the centre of each hexagon, since those same games have terrain fields that can block sight of units/pawns. The vision is determined by looking at the line between the 2 dots. Any field that lies under this line is effective 100% and any field that has a side under the line is 50%, corners have 0% effect.

Now, a ruler could be used. But that got in the way of the placed units and vice versa. And sometimes you could not see clearly what some fields are.
Then a pin with a rope was used (I got that idea from this forum), and we got it working. However, this left some space open for in game debates and trying for cheating. Especially when the rope goes across the entire board. It also is still time consuming for a big part. It is a hassle too. The boards are big, and the little player in our group has to climb up the table because he doesn't trust us adults in doing it right.

Ok, to make things short.
I want to get rid of this system, and have an ingenious way of dealing with this vision test.
If I have to add 1 or 2 little rules for dealing with vision, that would be ok.

Maybe a static stick a la X-Wing?

Maybe a chart? Since there's only so many range combinations, make an illustrated diagram of all the range examples. It may be a bit tedious, but you can get rid of the dots.

Just suggestions.

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Sat, 05/16/2015 - 13:24
#2
X3M
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You know...

The odd thing is, my buddy was right next to me when I was typing this topic.
He suggested the same thing.

However, it is hard to make a chart practical.

If it was to compare 2 numbers, then it would be ok.
But for every combination of start and end point, I need to make a list of all fields that are of influence.

I think you understand if the numbers are high.
And moreover, how to make it understandable for others. Drawing a line is something everyone understands, even if it doesn't happen 100% fair.
Consulting a list would be more problematic???

I think, I need to gather a lot of idea's before I can create something good out of it. And I will be putting my focus 100% on this for the next 7 days.

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Sat, 05/16/2015 - 19:33
#3
thoughtfulmonkey
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Technology

I've seen people playing x-Wing that use laser pointer / laser levels. Maybe not great for supplying with a game, but it could be useful for you at the moment.

There's also a growing trend for mobile apps to support games. If each hex could have a subtle grid reference printed on it, then an app that works out the intervening terrain when you enter two points shouldn't be too difficult.

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Sat, 05/16/2015 - 21:55
#4
MarkJindra
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Suggestion

It might be possible to find some hex based line of site rules. Back in the late 80's I remember pretty much every game had a hex grid. Advanced Squad Leader might be a great place to start.

http://www.advancedsquadleader.net/index.php?title=Main_Page

=M=

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Sun, 05/17/2015 - 07:02
#5
X3M
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Taking notes of new possibilities

-Lasers
How should that work? Do you mean with a laser pen? Somehowish?
However, I do not wish to set aside a pile of units for a clear laser pointer.

-Apps
Hmmm, this has some possibility. The app can be put up so simple, that it will be free of usage.

-ASL LOS (Advanced Squad Leader, Line of Sight)
Ok, I actually took pride when I heard from others on this forum. That my game looks a bit like ASL. I immediately compared everything and also bought that game (for fun too). And there is a really cool powerpoint presentation out there in how ASL LOS works. (Certainly worth while for even experienced players)

My LOS is a little bit different. I have much more range for some units (9 is max in the basic game, on one mission you have to deal with 15), thus harder to make the LOS. I think that is the main cause of my problem.

***

I have come up with another idea. But frankly, am not to happy about it:
Change of rules solution.

It is easier to determine the LOS when no units are around to meddle in the case. Because then you can use a ruler again. So, how about having units block vision as well? They already block movement, but that is a simple checking stage when someone moves around.

It is a bit hard to determine how much line of sight is blocked. So it would be an "all in" effect. 1 unit worth almost notching would still block the LOS for 100%?

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Sun, 05/17/2015 - 11:21
#6
thoughtfulmonkey
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Laser ruler

The laser lets you project a ruler onto the table from above. Here's an example.

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Sun, 05/17/2015 - 11:38
#7
X3M
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Ima gona fira my lazur!!

Somehowish? Like that! I like that!

Where to get it? It is perfect.

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Sun, 05/17/2015 - 15:42
#8
thoughtfulmonkey
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The one in the article is

The one in the article is available in Europe through Amazon (e.g. Germany, UK).

But you'll find laser levels in any DIY store - sold to help in putting up shelves etc. They're designed to rest on walls though, so might not be too comfortable to hold in your hand.

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Sun, 05/17/2015 - 16:59
#9
X3M
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I will be looking into this.

I will be looking into this. It is neat.
I wonder what I can dig up in the Netherlands (where I live)
Holding in the hands however is a pre. Since... well... we need to focus the laser on the board at different angles.
Safety is also important. I know my Lazürzzz. They might shoot out an eye (figural speaking)

It will beat the "we need to look down on the string one by one" method. Instead, having one imafiralazzürr... I just love saying that over and over...sorry...

Instead, having one imafiralzzürr down on the board and the rest is watching the light. Now everyone can agree at the same time, on the LOS.

I'll name the first purchased one... LÖSzür.

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Mon, 05/18/2015 - 04:29
#10
pelle
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Easier than laser (at least

Easier than laser (at least to acquire) is just to hold a ruler a bit above the table and watch were the shadow falls. Works unless you have too many light sources around the table.

Anyway with a bit of experience you can see the LOS without tools. You get used to figuring it out after a while. It probably helps to play games like ASL where you are never allowed to check LOS except when you declare an attack (and if it turns out the LOS was blocked the unit is still forced to roll for the attack, so it is wasted and weapons can malfunction etc, but there is no chance of hitting anything). That rule could probably speed up your game as well, because you never have to stop to allow players to check LOS except when they really have to.

You might want to switch to a more binary system like every other game does: LOS is blocked or it is not (in a few cases in ASL it is partially blocked, but that is a rare exception). It is usually very quick to find (on a hex map) if LOS is blocked or not without using a ruler or any other tool, once you get used to it. Having to track exactly what terrain is crossed over every hex is of course going go slow things down, but I never saw a game where forced to do that.

Adding limits to LOS distances will make LOS quicker to check and for most cases more realistic as well. It is not uncommon to have a limit of 3 or 5 hexes or so (depending on game scale of course) possibly depending on target terrain, so that only a unit in open terrain can be seen from any significant distance.

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Mon, 05/18/2015 - 13:46
#11
X3M
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It is true that some parts on

It is true that some parts on the board are well known by now. The Howitzers can only target a certain ammount of places. And it is checked every round. So eventually, we, the players know.

But it is work on new boards. That is the main idea of finding an easier way.

Quote:
But hey, that ruler + sharp light idea is a posibility too.

***

Sorry to say, but the big ranges are part of the strategy. It is also part of the balance as well. It is a continieus RPS system, where every double worth is weaker than it's halve worth in a medium filled map. (math and play tested 2 years ago, all unit speeds are the same in the tests with the exception of 0 speed)

1 beats 0
2 beats 1
3 beats 2, but is beaten by 0

2 beats 0
4 beats 2
6 beats 4, but is beaten by 0 (and 1 as well)

I think you get the general idea in why I am not going to change the rules regarding range.

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Tue, 07/14/2015 - 13:20
#12
X3M
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Digging up this one.

Digging up this one.

I tried the chart before digging up. It's.... troublesome. It starts with 2 range and 3 outcomes. But eventually you have range 9 that has 10 outcomes. And an outcome looks like this; example 4 range, third one of 5:
0,1/1,0; 1,1; 1,2/2,1; 2,2
Where the 0,1/1,0 are 2 fields that count only half. The other 2 count completely.

Now, using this chart and compare it to the field:
First you take a look at the range.
Then you look at which hexagon the target is at that range.
Simply counting 1 to [range+1].
Looking it up in the chart.
Checking all coördinates that are displayed from the origin.

It is not so good for the higher numbers.

Would it be better if there is a simpler, "up, right, up, right," story? So you sort of walk the path that is described in the chart?
What about a double field where both fields count only 50%? How to describe that in walking the path? (nvm, my buddy whispers in my ear; "line".

Was this explanation understandable?
Questions/Suggestions?

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