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Fog of war for a video board game

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larienna
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I am working in my mind on a video/board game about a modern military tactic game that would look close to video games like Conflict, Super Conflic, Advance Wars, and especialy Dai Senryaku. Now I have some issues about how the fog of war would be resolved and I am exploring various alternatives.

There are 2 type of fog of war, those that hide ennemy position and those that hide the map forcing you to explore. In "Commanders: Atack of the Genos", they implement both fog of war and the map exploration is very annoying, because you never know where you are going. So I intend to stick to hiding ennemy units.

http://lariennalibrary.com/extern/forum/FogOfWar/commanders-attack-of-th...

In Conflict, there is no fog of war. When a unit is selected, it highlight the area that you can move, you select your target and you "teleport" to destination since no path is calculated to reach the target. It's simple and elegant. I would like to have something similar in simplicity and efficiency.

http://lariennalibrary.com/extern/forum/FogOfWar/Super_Conflict_SNES_Scr...

But no fog of war makes scouting units useless and artillery unit more powerful. Units with cruise missile that can target units at more than 15 hexes away are just too abusive with no fog of war.

In Dai Senryaku, ennemy units are not shown and when you enter in collision or in the zone of control of an enemy unit, a surprise attack is initiated from the enemy. The problem with this solution is that a travel path must be calculated. Most of the time, the shortest path is used, but a player could want not to use the shortest path to avoid some obstacle, which implies askin the path to the user but implementing this feature would be even more complex.

http://lariennalibrary.com/extern/forum/FogOfWar/DaiSenryaku.jpg

In "commander: attack of the genos", not only they trace path, but you cannot move farther than where you can see so means in many situation you need to move a unit multiple times before spending all your movement which is not a convenient solution in my point of view.

So I thought of a compromise that could possibly work. The idea would be to show the position of the ennemy in the fog of war, but do not show their type and their stats. So when moving into the fog, you know which hex can be valid movement targets, preventing the need of path and colision detection while preventing long range unit to target ennemies inside the fog of war eve if they know their location.

The only drawback is that stealth units could be impossible to implement, but it's not such a big deal. Thematically, it makes sense that vehicles get somewhat detected by radar and other detection mechanism. So maybe showing the position of the ennemy is not so irrealist. As for infantry, if I want them more stealthy, I could use a different mechanic system that would allow them to stack over other units, or don't trigger blocking or interception. Not sure yet.

What do you think?

Any other solution?

Oripy
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Joined: 08/21/2013
Starcraft

One of the game that I frequently play that implements fog of war is Starcraft.

In this RTS:
- Units and buildings are hidden if you didn't scout them.
- Buildings will stay visible after you discovered them (but if they get destroyed or moved in the meantime, you are still able to see them in place until you scout this area again).
- Units will become not visible (and impossible to target by long range attacks) as soon as they are out of sight.

AFAIK, this is very standard for an RTS game.

I'm bringing this up for some other mechanics that I find interesting and that you may be able to use:
- The Sensor Tower (a building of the Terran race in Starcraft II), detects units moving under the fog of war, you can't see the type of unit but you can see them move. (A bright red sign replace the unit).
http://starcraft-2.webnode.cz/budovy/sensor-tower/
- Long range units that are shooting at one of your unit become visible for a short time so you can see who is firing at you. But as long as you can't see them, they remain impossible to target.
- They implemented a notion of level, you can't see (or target) a unit that is on the upper level you have no vision (ie. you are on the lower level). Of course flying units don't have this issue.

You could use the Sensor Tower mechanic on the whole map, or maybe on an area around your units (a circle with a bigger diameter than visibility distance), you could translate that as a "I can see something moving down there but I can't see what it is yet, it need to be closer".

This is my first post on this forum, I don't really know what is the etiquette around here, so I just want to say:
"Hi everyone, I'm Oripy from France, nice to meet you!"

kodokijo
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Joined: 08/19/2013
Are we talking about board

Are we talking about board game or video game?
Video games could implement fog of war, we all know this.
But implementing stealth or fog of war for a board game is still a pain in the ass. All of the published mechanics are either need each players honesty (like Dracula with hidden movements), or just to clunky and fiddly (like most war games which you must take note of each units on a piece of paper or with screens blocking not only the unit, but also the rest of the map, or with each piece laid out, you could see it, but not your units, thus the perception check)

If anybody in this forum could come up with better, not fiddly way to do stealth in board games, I'm all heart and ear.

larienna
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Quote:Are we talking about

Quote:
Are we talking about board game or video game?

Both! It would be a video game that has a board game feeling. Hex map, unit tokens, dice roll, etc. The only differences are some minor details harder to implement in a real board game like fuel consumption, ammo depletion and of course fog of war. Because like you said, it's a pain in the ass to implement.

Like I said, when there is no fog of war, it is easy to manage because player can easily see that valid moves they can do. But with FOW It ask the game to validate the move during the execution of the movement which is a bit more complicated.

Now was trying to see if I could have a fog of war without movement path calculation. Because I liked the idea of warping from a location to another without tracing a route and validating a move before moving. But I might not have a choice because it could impact other mechanics idea like for example artillery overwatch.

Which could allow a artillery to be placed in standby mode and shoot if somebody enter it's attack range. But if no movement path is calculated, then only the starting hex and the destination hex could trigger the overwatch. I could remove that ability, but it could still be interesting to keep it.

Hat-on-a-stick
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I'm not sure I can help you

I'm not sure I can help you with the actual fog-of-war, but I can think of several ways to handle certain situations that the fog-of-war might be for.

For example (and I think this was pretty much said actually, but just in case I misunderstood here's how I see it):

Artillery should only be able to use indirect fire on a distant enemy unit if that unit is constantly being "spotted" by a nearby scout unit. Artillery can use indirect fire without scouts, but its effectiveness is greatly reduced (defender gains bonuses against attack). Direct fire is when the artillery can see its target without assistance from another unit.

A scout unit has to roll to remain hidden (vs exposure) every turn an enemy unit is within a certain range, if they fail they become exposed. Roll has modifiers based on veteran status and distance to enemy unit. Scout units can't be attacked unless either exposed or they attack a unit first. For a scout to disengage and return to being hidden, they have to move away from an enemy unit and roll vs exposure.

Not ideal I know, but in the case of board games I think you are better off modelling the effects of fog-of-war than trying to implement an actual fog-of-war system as traditionally they tend to be unwieldy and complicated unless you resort to using a referee -- either human or technology based.

larienna
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Quote:Artillery should only

Quote:
Artillery should only be able to use indirect fire on a distant enemy unit if that unit is constantly being "spotted" by a nearby scout unit.

That was an idea I had recently to remove the need of fog of war.

As for keeping scout hidden, I don't see the need.

Else I was thinking that infantry remains always hidden but there is no colision with any other unit. They are on their own layer.

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