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How to determine values?

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killerkilroy
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Joined: 10/04/2012

I'm at the nuts and bolts stage of designing my giant robot game, and I'm kind of stymied on how to assign values to each of the various aspects of the game.

So far I know I need to determine:
-Values for enemy Hit points, attack and defense
-Values for players' starting HP, attack, defense and AP
-Costs for upgrades (in game resources)
-Values for upgrade attack/defense bonuses and cost (AP or AP+Resources) to use them.

I know that balancing all the costs and powers will take time and testing, but I don't even know where to start. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

X3M
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Pacific Rim?Are the robots

Pacific Rim?

Are the robots going to be different? Or is each player going to have the same robot at the start?
Are the monsters going to be all different?
Can players have more then 1 robot?
Can a robot have more then 1 weapon?
Can a robot have more then 1 defence type?
Am I looking at a RPG, or a little war game?

Corsaire
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Begin with pacing. You have

Begin with pacing. You have some of that in your game sketch. From that it sounds like combat is a mini-story, so you need enough rounds to give it drama. Seven rounds is what my gut says is a good story length for combat. Meaning in a typical combat, seven typical attacks take out one monster. Then (because it is robot themed) pick a big easy number like 7000 hit points, and 1000 for a basic attack.

Then how do you lift up the drama, maybe a typical combat has one big attack near the end. So, that needs to charge up. So you have 5 regular attacks and 1 haymaker. You want the haymaker around round 4 or 5. So, you can punch each round and save action points to get the haymaker off later. Looking like 2AP per turn, 1AP to punch, 1 to save. 5AP for the haymaker, etc.

Not saying use specifically this, but that's how I'd approach deconstructing it.

killerkilroy
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Answers for X3M

I answered a couple of those questions in this thread .

Answers in order of question asked:
Inspired by Pacific Rim, Macross, Gundam, Mechwarrior and more.
Not sure about unique robots yet, early stage planning/balancing will be done with generic robots.
Monsters will probably have several variants in each Tier, whether that means unique stats and art is tbd.
Players can only have 1 robot.
The design document lists the available upgrades, at this point a player could have 3 (left arm, right arm, torso)
Planned defense items include physical shields (arm upgrades), increased armor plating and energy shields (torso upgrade)
Neither, this is a cooperative board game (unrelated rhetorical question; is board game the correct term if there's no board?).

killerkilroy
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Corsaire , interesting idea

Corsaire , interesting idea of using factors of 10 to make simple numbers and math more thematic. A 1000 point punch seems way cooler than a 1 point punch. Though it seems like you just picked an arbitrary number of AP based on "what my gut says," that may be the best way to do it. I think for the combat values your idea of finding a number of attacks that "feels" right is a good jumping off point. I just need to take the time to start playing with numbers and finding what seems to work. Fine tuning can come later.

X3M
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The game is more fun if a

The game is more fun if a robot has more then 1 weapon.
Since you have 2 arms and a torso (you could throw the 3 armed robot in :D)
Anyway, if each player starts with the same basic robot. There is more of a competition. And more the feel of fairness. You could even let the players choose different weapons.

I suppose you want to use dice to determine the hits? Or else it would be a simple calculating game.
I also suppose you want to have different monsters in each tier. Meaning I will be playing with the health and armor of those monsters too.
I will first suggest a simple tier for some weapons by simply increasing the damage. But keep in mind, you could also add specialism for each weapon. Like not upgrading the damage, but only the fire rate. But that makes things complicated and perhaps not needed.

Damage/hit is the damage,
Armor gets subtracted from this,
Then the real damage remains, <0 is 0
The fire rate is the number of dice you can throw for that weapon to determine if each dice is a hit or not. If you want, you can have different accuracy on that for each weapon.
Results for now:
What you get is that low damaging weapons do relatively a better job against low armor.

First some weapon suggestions, then an analyses on the effects. I also have this in a excel spreadsheet.

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Some suggested weapons with only damage and fire rate:
Gatling Gun:
Tier 0; damage/hit=150; fire rate=10
Tier 1; I don't know the number of tiers you want, but lets say each tier has 20% increase in damage. So 180 damage, then 210 damage, etc.
Tier 5; simply the double of damage.
Quad Canon:
Tier 0; damage/hit=240; fire rate=4
Light Laser:
Tier 0; damage/hit=90 + 100; fire rate=12 for each, a total of 24
Heavy Laser:
Tier 0; damage/hit=190 + 200; fire rate=3 for each, a total of 6
Rockets:
Tier 0; damage/hit=250 + 90; fire rate=3 on the 250 and 5 on the 90.
Big Cannon:
Tier 0; damage/hit=450 + 100; fire rate=1 on the 450 and 3 on the 100.

The double effects is for balancing. If the effects would be placed in a graph, you would see a M figure instead of a ^ figure.

Let's look at a fight against a Tier 0 monster with armor 0. Then each weapon does a max of:
Gatling Gun:1500
Quad Canon:960
Light Laser:2280 (Best)
Heavy Laser:1170
Rockets:1200
Big Cannon:750 (Worst)

The first noticable change is when the monster has 60 armor: Gattling Gun is now the best. That means having the Light Laser is starting to be bad news.
At 80 armor, the Light Laser is now the worst.
At 90 armor, the Heavy Laser is the best.
At 100 armor, the Light Laser has no effect any more. 5 weapons remain.
At 110 armor, the Quad Cannon is the best.
At 120 armor, the Gattling Gun is the worst.
At 150 armor, the Gattling Gun has no effect any more. 4 weapons remain.
At 170; the Big Cannon now shared the best with the Quad Cannon, after this the Big Cannon takes over.
Heavy Laser ends at armor 200.
Quad Cannon ends at armor 240.
Rockets ends at armor 250.
Armor 450 for a monster means that all weapons are obsolete. Unless trained. If the Big Cannon has tier 5, then the Armor of 900 means the end for the game.

Being the best weapon at number of armors:
Light Laser 0 to 50
Gattling Gun 60 to 80
Heavy Laser 90 to 100
Quad Cannon 110 to 170
Big Cannon 170 to 440

The Rockets never will be the best, but are a good all round weapon, and they have effect till 240 armor. I suggest having 1 monster with armor 240.

I also took a look at the tier. Due to the 20% increase, some weapons upgrade differently as well. Some are actually better after the upgrade then others. I guess this is imbalance on my part. But perhaps it could serve as an unwanted technology at the start, yet needed in the end. So some strategy can be implemented as well.

I have the excel spreadsheet with these weapon effects on armor if you want. You can simply add more or change existing ones. Although if you give your own list of weapon names and order them from heat to kinetic. I could do the calculations for you. But only if you like the idea.

Corsaire
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killerkilroy wrote:Though it

killerkilroy wrote:
Though it seems like you just picked an arbitrary number of AP based on "what my gut says," that may be the best way to do it.

A bit less than arbitrary in that it ties to the feel you want for combat length, complexity of decisions the player is making, and whether there is a "charge up" characteristic in a battle (e.g. no haymakers in the first round of combat.) 2 AP in that case was the least number to illustrate a simple action with a later round charge up.

Kroz1776
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Joined: 10/09/2013
Another System

Another way to come up with values is to determine what the average stat will be. Thus you take a robot with movement, attack, defense, Hp, etc. Then you assign each one an average stat. So avg Move is 4, attack 3, defense 4, Hp 10, etc. Then when you want to change stats to make things more unique, you start to change the stats. By giving yourself a baseline from which to work, you can then say, well I want this guy to have bad defense but fast. You can then give him 2 defense (bad) and 6+ move (good). Or if you just wanted poor defense and good attack, you could change it to 3 defense (poor) and 4 attack (good). I found that this really helped me figure out the starting values of my units in my tactical war game.

These values though are just starting points and balancing may be done at the player's discretion.

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