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Ideas for a Fun but Simplistic Combat Mechanic?

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wiznas
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Im working on a game for an Elementary School English class in Japan, where each student will have a handful of monsters (maybe 2 or 3) with different strengths and weaknesses. The English learning will be loosely tied into the attacking, but really irrelevant to the game mechanics. Elementary school English is simply not at the level where I can tie the English even remotely into the physics of the game.

Students will challenge each other to incredibly quick skirmishes, 1 minute or less, before moving on to the next challenger. I've tried a number of combat mechanics, but am unable to find the balance between simple enough for me to explain, complex enough to be fun. Would appreciate any thoughts or ideas!

**Read only if you are interested in the context**
Im teaching in a elementary school in Japan that everyone has given up hope on. Most teachers have found apathy is the best defense for dealing with disrespectful kids with disrespectful parents.

Im just their English teacher once a week, but I can see that the kids are smart and bored. They are bored because English education in Japan is incredibly wishy washy, with no firm curriculum, tests, quizes or homework. So there's no real motivation for paying attention in class. Since my mandate is focused more on kindling interest, and less on covering standardized material, I do have a lot of freedom in the class. I want to start using games as a way to make English class fun, and as an ongoing rewards system, good students will get bonuses for their characters and a better chance of winning battles.

Traz
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hmmmmmmm.........

The only thing I know about Japanese kids is that they are hooked on 'Rock, Paper, Scissors'. I don't get the national obsession, but there it is. Try to use RPS as your base.

The better your 'character' the better odds you get to challenge the person at the top of the mountain.

Best student plays all challengers at best 5 out of 9.

Next level down is 4 out of 7.

Next is 3 out of 5.

Next is 2 out of 3.

Bottom is 1 shot - winner take all.

Give it a whirl - what have you got to lose?

Fhizban
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hey wiznas, first of all you

hey wiznas, first of all you get my kudos for taking your job seriously, it sounds like a real challenge.

and just like traz i think RPS is a very good idea, you could tie the english names to the names of the RPS figures (you dont have to call them rock-paper-scissors)

do some google queries, you will find modifications of the RPS system (even with 5 different possibilites, if thats not too complex)

another idea of mine, but i dont know if it works in practice - just brainstormed it up quickly:

limit the number of times one player can use a single RPS gesture. this reduces the possibilities over a number of matches, making the players think about what gesture their opponent still could use:

* 2 players fight 5 RPS matches against each other
* each player may use each gesture only 2 times
2x rock
2x paper
2x scissors

during the first round its all open, but then the moves of your opponent get predictable, in the last round there are still 2 options open your opponent could use

but, maybe this system becomes unfair (when you know your opponent is out of rocks for example)

to count how many gestures a player has left, you could use small colored tiles with the english gesture names on them. or even the name of the monsters you mentioned earlier. this way you can 1. count the gestures 2. have pictures that make it funnier and 3. bring some english names in.

just my 2 cents, hope it helped you thinking about something

Cogentesque
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Heya Wiznas, Yeah totally

Heya Wiznas,

Yeah totally agree with Fitz, really awesome for taking your job seriously :)

I would probably really go for the scissors paper stone (us: rock paper stone right?) thing as well to be honest, sounds fun - and its also inherently fun to do - WITHOTU the "learn english" side of things, so that is instant interest from the kids.

Oriignallyu I thought of having different monsters having d6's but each having a different proportion of R,P,S scattered on the dice - this would show each monster to have its own strength and weakness.

Perhaps two fights - one, player 1 chooses his monster first, and two, player 2 chooses his monster.

But then I started thinking that you would need refreence cards and custom dice printed up. So screw that.

Otherwise I would think getting a massive load of D6's and getting a combat system together with that would be cool - also cheaper. So each monster would do better on a certain number? (eg: Pikachu is auto win on a 5 and garymon is +1 damage on 3,4,5) - winner is the highest - again refrerence cards needed but D6's are probably better.

Could you couple this into learning numbers somehow? And "Defence" and "attack" and those kind of words? And perhaps name each monster like a day-to-day obkect? Like use the "-mon" thing on every card but do one like a picure of a table with googly eyes "Table-Mon" - so kids can learn simple nouns like that?

"Door-mon" attacks "Car-mon" for 5+1 damage - kind of thing?

Orangebeard
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What kind of English?

Are we talking basic English words or the real nuts and bolts of the language (adverbs, predicate nominatives, etc).

Maybe you could do something that is a little of both? What if the students each controlled 1 or more monsters that were good against certain types of words? For example, say there is a Noun-Monster and a Verb-Monster. Noun-Monster is good at crunching nouns (go figure!) and Verb-Monster crunches verbs. Each player writes a sentence down that could be thought of as a defensive wall of some kind. The game plays in rounds and each player assigns their monsters to attack different parts of the opponent's sentence. Any monster can attack any word, but using the right monster for the right word will break the opponent's wall faster. If there is a monster that doesn't have a matching word, then they can attack anything or perhaps they have a secondary word type (LOOK OUT! PAST TENSE NOUN MONSTER IS RUNNING WILD!)

So there would be a little education happening with regard to proper sentence structure, a little more when you need to recognize a certain type of word, and maybe a little more if you allow the players to choose the monsters they want before the battle or the words they can use to build their "walls" (Ha! Your 3 Noun Monsters will never defeat my wall of "Yesterday's Quickly Flowing Blue River!")

Maybe small words are easier to break? Maybe you get points for each broken word? Maybe there are limits to the number of points in a single sentence or the total size of your monster force? Maybe YOU write the sentence and the whole class works together on your super wall? Many possibilities here...

...and thanks for making an effort - even a small bit will probalby help your kids tremendously! If I could stick a big gold star on your post, I would!

Good Luck with your design!

InvisibleJon
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Bead bag probabilities...

You can get surprisingly complex behaviors with very little design effort out of a bag of beads of different colors.

Imagine that you have two basic beads:
* Red = Attack
* Blue = Defense

When you're in combat, you and your opponent draw a number of beads equal to your respective combat values. Tally your red beads vs. their blue and vice versa. If your red exceeds their blue, they take hits equal to the difference and vice versa. Hits you take are beads removed from your bag at random. When you lose your last bead, you're out. At the end of a combat round, put the beads you drew for the attack back in the bag.

This simple structure affords lots of room for customization. You can modify your ratio of red to blue in a bag. You can have bags with more or fewer beads in them. You can draw more or fewer beads during combat.

Beyond this, it's easy to create new beads that do special things. You may start with some, but be able to earn more through various in-class rewards.

Disadvantages: Tracking the bags and the beads; preventing cheating; preventing forgery; etc.
Note also that you can do pretty much the same thing with a deck of cards, but this system requires a lot of shuffling, and a bead bag is better suited to that.

***********

Alternate: Hiding beads in hands and using a pick-a-hand system. See http://www.invisible-city.com/play/474/template-battles for one of my games that uses the pick-a-hand mechanic for combat resolution.

***********

Regardless of the combat system you use, if you're having a "duel" system, I strongly recommend a "leader board" with the top 10% of the competitors ranked. (Not all the players so the lowest ones aren't picked on.) People are heavily motivated by public recognition, and a public "high score board" is a very effective tool for motivation.

I wish you the best of luck!

larienna
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Battle creature card game are

Battle creature card game are really popular in japan (Yu-gi-oh and duel masters are example)

Rock-paper-scissor is fine, but I would like something a bit better. You want student to learn a few words right, so there is to be a need to use text of words, but you don't want to have rules on the cards.

So an idea is that a creature could have various attack names which has a value and maybe Rock-Paper-Scissor. So a dragon creature could have net say:

--- Red Dragon ---
Fire Breath: Rock-5
Charge: Paper- 2
Tail Slap: Scissor - 3.

Some creatures will share the same attack names. So if I say "charge" you do not know if it's my dragon or my basilisk.

The players would draw the top creature card from their deck and place it face down and call the attack name they want to use. So the other players must try to guess what creature his opponent has to call the right attack. For more strategy, you could give them 3 cards at a time and make them choose 1 to play.

The resolution could one of the following:

- RPS determine winner , in case of ties use the number
- the number determine the winner, in case of ties, use the RPS.
- The number determine the winner, if RPS is valid, double your strength.

To reduce the number of RPS victories, you can make a 5 way RPS relationship by using asian elements model for creature (Chinese: Fire, Air, Water, Wood, MEtal, or Japanese: Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Void)

The idea of calling attack names makes them practice the words. Creatues would also have names that they could call when revealing their cards. So I think is the best way for them to use english words without beign able to read a sentence.

What do you think?

deFunkt29
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I think Larienna has a really

I think Larienna has a really cool game idea going. I like the idea of the rps adding or doubling to the numbers that determine victory. I also like the 3 card hand idea, but you could experiment with a few different ideas.

Although I see the reason for choosing monsters, I think it really limits the amount of English that the class will learn by 1) Choosing something that Japanese youth culture is already quite familiar with (dragons, fire breath, magic etc) and 2) By limitting the game to 1 type of noun, and one that isn't very relevant in today's society.

Perhaps instead there could be a few different categories of cards, that are more modern useful words? Perhaps cars, or different careers, or maybe buildings. Although it's a bit more abstract (The cards wont exactly be fighting, just looking for a higher score), you could really add another dimension to the learning element. Or perhaps you could start with monsters and make a change to different categories.

Either way, it's a great idea! Kudos to the work you're putting in!

wiznas
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Thanks so much for your time and thoughts!

Guys, Thanks so much for your time and thoughts! What a great response. I like this place.
Traz is right, RPS is unbelievably popular here and has huge potential as a mechanics foundation or component. I’ve employed it for some simple go fish style games. I would love to build a combat game around it, if I could add the right amount of complexity to make it more interesting but not confusing.

My first attempt at a game was a little like Larienna mentioned, a monster with hp and 3 attacks, each relative to RPS. If your RPS attack was successful you subtracted the according points from the enemy’s hp. I planned on just upgrading the characters as time went on. It’s a good, manageable step from a game they already know. But my version still lacked a little something, like it was just more RPS, but with some subtraction involved. 5 way RPS is definitely something I want to look into. Maybe a even a card game system with a color wheel yellow beats green, green beats blue. Could be fairly easy across language barriers.

I like the idea of having 2 cards for each RPS attack like Fhizban said, that’s an interesting twist. Could be that on vocab cards theres also a R P or S which could be used for attacking. Fun and simple twist. Could be easy to make semi disposable cards (I already do) with little R, P, or Ss on them somewhere. Thanks for your cents. Nice idea.

My ideas often get drawn into personal card decks for students. There’s tons of freedom for cumulative complexity in the game, cards can get more and more creative once the students get the hang of the combat. Difficult English words would get increasingly more powerful. However that may be a catch 22, I don’t want to make some cards obsolete and if I want to keep battles short and sweet, that means small hands of cards 5 or less probably. So the students will only practice the english for the 5 best cards. Maybe if the 5 card hand somehow supplemented the student’s personal character, and I dished out the cards at the beginning of the class according to what were learning; I could control what language theyll practice, but of course I still want to give them strategic freedom.

Congentesque,
Agreed, it’s gotta be fun without English. I gotta be able to reach the kids who are at the bottom of the barrel, and theyre gonna shut down if the smarties are always winning. The best way may be just English on almost a subliminal level, like rote memorization involved in some attacks. I hate saying that as a teacher, but the infrastructure is just not in place for more intense education (45 minutes a week per student). I love the idea of naming monsters or attacks after vocab, could go down the card deck route and make each flash card a monster with varying specs or perks relative to a 6 sided die (D6 right?). The challenge with that will be to keep students interested by making sweeter cards, without making the beginning cards obsolete. Or maybe that’s okay, I don’t need to drill them with fruits and vegetables all year. Not to mention of course, physically making hundreds of cards.

Orangebeard,
it’s a totally sweet idea to make the mechanic tied directly into learning English, but the level is definitely not there. Right now I’m just teaching Basic English for sure. Your idea would be awesome for my 8th graders in middle school, but my partner teacher there is not really game-friendly. I’m slowly working on him… introducing Jeopardy next week which apparently is earth-shattering.

InvisibleJon,
That’s a sweet idea with the bag of beads, totally perfect in complexity. I’d love to also have some kind of tangible aspect to the mechanic as well. Very good for explaining. I suppose I could hold on to all the students’ bags, though it would prevent any outside of class gaming, but maybe that would help increase the hype when it was time to play. Definitely will be thinking more on this in the next few days. Agreed on the public recognition, that’s huge for motivation for the kids (and everyone). Also If I get a workable game I may also build asimple story around the battles and have bosses prepared for the students to fight, but that’s the cart before the horse!

Larienna and Defunkt
Really nice ideas and critiques, the RPS mechanic is completely ingrained and ready to be morphed into something else. I agree with Defunkt that the attacks and monsters should be relevant English, particularly what they will begin learning in the middle school curriculum. not opposed to making the game more abstract with only point values for attack and defense.

larienna
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Component wise, you want

Component wise, you want something that is easy to carry and that can be played anywhere. If players only need to carry 10 cards only ( no token, no dice) then this is perfect because it can be played anywhere. Also playing 1 card at a time, could make the game playable without a table. Which increase the idea of playing anywhere.

As for vocabulary, you could expand the theme wider a bit like Yu-gi-oh which if I remember right, there was a "man eating hamburger" card. So you could have absurdities like the "Demon possessed tentacle toaster". It could be funny and expand the vocabulary, but I agree that it will scrap the thematic feeling of the game. But considering that language is more important than the theme, that could be a good idea.

wiznas
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Im with you but, I can tell

Im with you but, I can tell you the home room teachers are going to raise their eyebrows if i start teaching off the wall vocab to new English learners.

Would such a mechanic still function if, say I have a RPS based system and each time we play the attacks could be initiated by practicing different English? example one day we will learn:
1. I want a cheeseburger.
2. I want a salad.
3. I am not hungry.

practice 1. for rock attack 2. for paper, 3. scissors.

But in such a battle how does RPS take a significant role without negating the attack values of your character. If RPS win means attack win and death to monster, I feel like its too much like RPS and not enough monster battle.

I tried a monster card with hp, and RPS initiates successful attack while point values relate to damage, but it was a little it boring and it was cumbersome to keep up with Hp, maybe because the attacks were weird numbers like 17, out of 43 HP. (this happened because i let the kids create their characters with x number of skill points)

Can you think of any other system which would integrate RPS and player stats in a non cumbersome way?

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