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My game, Triumph, needs more engaging combat

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Squinshee
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I've been working on a card game where you choose a predetermined trio of heroes to battle against another trio. There are three hero cards, a deck of roughly 30 cards, customized for the team, and a grid-based board. The board is essentially two 3x3 grids that face each other. Your heroes can't move into your opponents boards and vice versa. I have it designed like this to promote TEAMWORK, the major theme of Triumph. I just finished cleaning up my design document, which you can find here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aauRPDk4a2TpGp5eOsKLIW-cmQIiUSs3MsAw...

It's long but detailed, and I hope it outlines my concept understandably. Cards, attacks, etc., are still in the early phases, but the language is all uniform. It's just not balanced at all, but I think it's too early to worry about that.

Why?

I'm not pleased with my combat step. I want to make a grid-based game where you can react to attacks coming at you. It's something that has always bothered me in games like Fire Emblem, Disgaea, or Final Fantasy Tactics. I hate that it's part of the design to simply get hit. Yuck.

Triumph has cards and abilities on heroes called Reactions, which let you, WOAH, react to attacks. Some block attacks, some move you to another space and thus dodge attacks, and others affect the attacker. Problem is, it's too black or white still. When players have Reaction cards in their hands, they always use them, and the Reactions glued on to heroes can be seen from a mile away. It leads to a bland combat step - the very last thing I want. I don't want to resort to die rolls or random factors like that. I know there's something here, but I'm pretty stuck.

Thanks for reading this long post (and way longer design document).

Jonsan
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Joined: 02/09/2010
Some thoughts

I read most of the design document, I skimmed the cards.

Why are the heroes kept on two separate boards? Is there a thematic explanation for that design decision?

In a game where the heroes are attacking one another, why are victory points a separate abstraction and not tied to the state of the heroes?

What about the combat is bland during play? Are the best choices always obvious and thus not really choices?

I would need to play it to offer decent ideas. The only thing jumping out at me is that this type of game seems well suited for simultaneous play. With the separate boards and heroes which don't take damage or get removed, I would try an altered rule set where the players assign movement, attacks, and reactions to their heroes and then each player reveals their chosen cards at the same time during each step.

So maybe each hero can have a maximum of three cards assigned to them each turn and both players reveal Action 1 or each hero at the same time, Action 2 for each hero at the same time, and Actions 3 at the same time. That might simulate a frenetic, distance combat.

But again, having not played it, the questions and ideas are just meant as food for thought.

Squinshee
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Thanks for giving it a

Thanks for giving it a read!

"Why are the heroes kept on two separate boards? Is there a thematic explanation for that design decision?"

I chose this design because having heroes close together, rather than on a huge board, seemed to encourage the concept of teamwork. I'm drawn to the idea of a trio of heroes doing cool stuff together, and them being situated close to one another seemed like a good way to go.

"In a game where the heroes are attacking one another, why are victory points a separate abstraction and not tied to the state of the heroes?"

I worked with Health Points for heroes initially, but I ran into roadblocks. The biggest one being, what happens when a hero dies? Your deck is comprised of some cards that are specific to each hero, meaning those cards are now dead, and thus creating a positive feedback loop. Offsetting that loss was tricky and clunky. Victory Points eliminates that issue, but I can't say it doesn't bring about others, such as REASON to attack CERTAIN heroes. I added Morality Bonuses to try to offset that, but I don't know if that's working.

"What about the combat is bland during play? Are the best choices always obvious and thus not really choices?"

That's partially why it's on the bland side. It's also a little black and white. Combat is largely dictated by if your opponent does or doesn't have reaction cards in hand. Also, it's too insular right now. You're not really thinking about how to disrupt your opponent. You're mostly just figuring out the best thing to do with your guys.

I hope I don't come off as defensive here. I value people's thoughts, and yours have been helpful. Your simultaneous play is food for thought.

Jonsan
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Joined: 02/09/2010
No worries, not defensive at

No worries, not defensive at all. I'm asking questions and offering ideas solely to help your wheels turn so you can work this through. Having someone else act as a sounding board is often the best way for me to overcome being stuck.

I think that, because you have cards centered around heroes, not allowing for hero death is a good design choice. It would lead to one player getting an advantage and then having an inevitable victory. What if the attack cards are each worth a certain number of victory points and you set aside the successful attacks into their own pile during play. Each player counts up their victory at the end. You then also have some extra design space because you can make cards that manipulate, influence, or look at the cards in the victory pile.

You mentioned wanting players to be concerned about disrupting the opponent and also having a focus on teamwork. If there were an incentive to having each character attack sequentially that would provide an incentive to go after a particular hero. Combos and combo-breakers essentially.

The set-up reminds me of the Pro-Bending Arena in Legend of Korra. For a really different spin on your game you could center it around trying to knock the opposing heroes off the board and make the cards more centered around moving the and manipulating the heroes, but that is certainly a departure from your current theme.

Squinshee
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In previous iterations, when

In previous iterations, when heroes held onto AP, 'Out of Bounds' was a mechanic that made the hero lose said held AP - a concept inspired by Legend of Korra! Now that I think of it, my setup REALLY reminds me of the Mega Man Battle Network games.

The idea of two attack card piles is interesting, but I've been weary on having attacks exclusively tethered to your hand. What if you don't draw attacks? There's also very little way for your opponent to feasibly predict what attacks you can make. Still, something to ponder.

The sequential combo sounds pretty interesting and works well with the theme. I understand that as a combo, but how is that a combo-breaker?

Jonsan
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Joined: 02/09/2010
Maybe I misunderstood. Isn't

Maybe I misunderstood. Isn't there one deck you are drawing from? The idea of victory points being tied to the attack cards would just mean that any successful attacks are discarded to the victory pile rather than the standard discard pile.

The combo breaker thing would require that the opponent have the ability to launch an attack before you can complete a sequential attack with all three of your heroes. I think adding that to the game would require changing turn or action order rules somewhat though. It might also be difficult to keep track of...

ruy343
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You were onto something....

I was reading through the first comment and an idea struck me that might fix the reactions mechanic:

What if each turn the heroes were only allowed to take 3-4 actions such as movement, attacking, or playing cards. However, you can only play a reaction if you have spare actions left to play, with certain reactions costing perhaps more, or leaving you drained on your next turn (so one player might have a reaction card that allows a dodge at no action cost, but leaves you with one less action on the following turn!). Suddenly, your players have a limited amount of actions per turn, and and the players have to work together to most intelligently use those actions to support each other

I like the simultaneous combat idea as well because it's unique, and the way you've described it, it sounds like it could work.

Anyways, I just read that and thought I could help.

Squinshee
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Thanks for reading! I like

Thanks for reading!

I like the idea of having a finite number of actions, but this idea of simultaneous play is piquing my interest. When one person mentioned the thought, I wrote it off, by two is different. Besides, keeping players invested throughout - not just on their turn - is worth striving for.

Squinshee
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Pursuing new kernel

Thinking about simultaneous gameplay didn't pan out. Not because it wasn't a good idea, but rather I had a hard time conceptualizing it. What I have been thinking about is dice.

I recently bought Settlers of Catan and Seasons, and WOW, those game have fun dice rolling mechanics. Catan's is white-bread-simple: a turn starts with a dice roll, and any player can potentially benefit from it. That keeps players engaged throughout. Seasons allocates actions, resources, and the speed of the game, and more via beautifully chunky dice. All players choose among the rolled dice, leaving meaningful choices for all.

I've been too eager to discount what dice can accomplish. I'm now looking into an elemental system (fire, earth, water, wind), three of which are randomly placed on both boards at the beginning of the game via a hefty dice roll. Seven dice in all, one being either a number or an element, allowing you to replace one of the rolled dice for something more desirable.

Elements have their own attacks, reactions, weaknesses, and can be converted into an energy to play cards with. Details are still murky, but I'm optimistic.

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