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Pros and Cons of different kinds of hidden scoring / partially hidden information

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AnEvenWeirderMove
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I was having a discussion with a friend of mine who has some very interesting opinions regarding complexity (specifically regarding how difficult action decisions are in Agricola versus Lords of Waterdeep) and this led to a few thoughts regarding hidden information that I thought I'd share and get some opinions from you guys.

The discussion arose regarding hidden scoring and hidden information in games where that information WAS visible and BECAME invisible, versus the same information in a game where it was NEVER visible.

Examples of the first type include Dominion, Incan Gold, and Magic The Gathering.
Examples of the second type include Lords of Waterdeep and Jaipur

The problem with hidden information that becomes hidden is that it encourages play that either takes up a large space of memory, or that requires the player to take notes. Tournament Magic players often take note of the cards that are in the other player's hand whenever they get the opportunity to look at them, to the point where it is very beneficial to take into account the art on cards, providing less information by always using the same card art, or by making sure to play the version of the card the other player has seen.

Then again, there's a complimentary problem, and I think it's the reason that hidden information is often used. If this information is NOT hidden, players must take into account all of the information available, which vastly increases the state-space that a player must look at... if that information is hidden, although the state-space is the same size, the immediately accessible part of that space is smaller, and it's hard to keep track of the rest of the information, therefore the game APPEARS less complex to players, while requiring more effort to play well.

All of this is out the window when hidden information is ALWAYS hidden... for example, face-down scoring chips or cards with unknown values. Here, the player must instead consider the range of values available, perhaps combined with the ones they know to exist, and determine a bound on what another player's score is likely to be, in order to estimate one's standing in the game.

I'll write more on this later as I recount more of the discussion, but for now, I wonder what BGDF thinks of hidden scoring / hidden information mechanics, and what purposes they serve. Should that information be open instead? If not, what does hiding it bring to the game?

silasmolino
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Hiding vs Open

Iv' never understood hidden vs not hidden scoring. I suppose non-hidden scoring promotes more competition and hidden scoring may promote less competition.

With regards to hidden information, the I've seen two reasons for the mechanic:
1. To bluff your opponent into certain actions. For example, when playing A Game of Thrones v2.0, there are bidding phases which require (hidden) acquired power tokens to be simultaneously spent by competing players for prestige, position, or rewards. In this instance, I bluff my way into positions (having more tokens then they thought I had), or bluff my enemies into spending more than they needed to.

1.5 Dominion takes a middle approach in which VP are incorporated into a hand upon acquisition and are never-after shown to the public, but the purchase of VP is not a secret and can be countable.

2. Prevent others from taking your goal. In both Ticket to Ride and Risk's Objective Oriented rule set, A player does not want to show their ticket/card (aka objective) because they do not want others sabotaging their lines/domination toward a higher point score.

I'm sure there there are other reasons hidden information can be used, but in the games I have played these are reasons for hidden information.

truekid games
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The most common uses for

The most common uses for hidden info/scoring is to reduce analysis paralysis (less time trying to calculate all possibilities based on current state), for bluffing/surprises or hidden goals, and to give players the feeling that there could be a chance for them to catch up when they might not otherwise.

People sometimes try to say that if the info was -ever- available, it is essentially/should be -always- available. Those people are wrong. Most people don't even correctly remember 4 players worth of simple scores, much less more complicated information. Thus hiding things after they are revealed clearly serves a function. Just like the majority of things in games, you shouldn't do it ALL the time, but you should know when it will benefit the design. Also, in MOST games (pro Magic being an exception), taking notes would essentially be presenting information meant to be hidden in an un-hidden manner... thus playing contrary to the intended rules.

sedjtroll
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truekid games wrote:The most

truekid games wrote:
The most common uses for hidden info/scoring is to reduce analysis paralysis (less time trying to calculate all possibilities based on current state), for bluffing/surprises or hidden goals, and to give players the feeling that there could be a chance for them to catch up when they might not otherwise.

People sometimes try to say that if the info was -ever- available, it is essentially/should be -always- available. Those people are wrong. Most people don't even correctly remember 4 players worth of simple scores, much less more complicated information. Thus hiding things after they are revealed clearly serves a function. Just like the majority of things in games, you shouldn't do it ALL the time, but you should know when it will benefit the design. Also, in MOST games (pro Magic being an exception), taking notes would essentially be presenting information meant to be hidden in an un-hidden manner... thus playing contrary to the intended rules.


If there were a "Like" or "thumb" button, I would click it several times for this post.

(Hopefully an odd number of times, in case it's a toggle situation)

kos
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Memory as a skill

Games where public information becomes hidden add a new element of skill -- memory.

The children's game, Memory, is all about developing this skill. But it is also a key element of skill in serious games, for example Blackjack. A keen memory is what turns Blackjack from a game of chance into a game of skill. It is also one of the required skills (amongst several others) to play Bridge well. The issue is not about whether these kinds of game require skill, but about whether an individual player enjoys using/developing this skill.

Personally I'm not interested in honing a skill that can be replaced by a notepad. Which is why I don't play Blackjack, and why notepads are banned in casinos. I'd rather play games where the major skill element cannot be replaced by an inanimate object.

Information that is always hidden, or is initially hidden and revealed under certain conditions, allows different kinds of skill to emerge such as intuition and bluffing. I don't think there's a right and wrong, just different kinds of players will enjoy exercising different kinds of skill (and/or be frustrated by their lack of the required skill).

Regards,
kos

JustActCasual
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Arguably memory skill does

Arguably memory skill does not provide a large advantage on its own in these situations because it brings back in the Analysis Paralysis that the hidden method was placed to avoid.

In Dominion the information is not very hidden because you have to discard your hand at end of turn: you see the whole deck of a player each go through. I would say a larger barrier to understanding what's in another player's deck is the low interaction of the game: as long as your deck is chugging along, you don't always have reason to care about the exact contents of another players deck.

Hidden scoring is an interesting issue, which I've thought about before in terms of Smallworld. The mechanic is in place so as to discourage negative behaviours such as beating on the winner or kingmaking. Obviously all the information is knowable if you have a good memory and keep track carefully, but since this would distract from your chances of actually winning the game there is little reason to.

I would say that in games where this kind of knowable hidden information is used, it must be judged based on how it affects gameplay: in cases such as Dominion or Smallworld it works in a similar way to good visual design, focusing the mind on important elements of gameplay at little cost; in cases such as competitive Magic or Blackjack it is simply wearisome in that it slows down gameplay and makes players feel stupid if they're not using these metastrategies. In the latter cases the game should be adjusted to eliminate this kind of information (leaving known information faceup). Magic Online is an interesting variant on regular magic in that it keeps a record of cards that are revealed, as well as every play of a game: on the other hand you lose information like token cards brought to the table and face-to-face interaction.

truekid games
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kos wrote:I'd rather play

kos wrote:
I'd rather play games where the major skill element cannot be replaced by an inanimate object.
So you never play games more than once? or even games with comparable mechanics or flex points? because learning and adjusting from game to game is memory (or using knowledge from previous plays of other games), and is present in all games on repeat plays. In fact, pattern recognition is the CORE skill of virtually all gameplay, from chess to basketball to Agricola.

JustActCasual
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Leaps and bounds

truekid games wrote:
kos wrote:
I'd rather play games where the major skill element cannot be replaced by an inanimate object.
So you never play games more than once? or even games with comparable mechanics or flex points? because learning and adjusting from game to game is memory (or using knowledge from previous plays of other games), and is present in all games on repeat plays. In fact, pattern recognition is the CORE skill of virtually all gameplay, from chess to basketball to Agricola.

That's a bit of a leap. I think he was saying that games where trivial memory tasks are a core aspect of gameplay are uninteresting to him. The history aspect is more about multiple levels of pattern recognition: recognizing a strategy, recognizing which strategies are winning, recognizing why you may have lost a game, etc. In fact, I would say games that work to mitigate the memory component of this kind of pattern recognition are better games for it (most board games have some amount of physical memory in the board state...that's why there's a board). To jump on someone for hating learning when they've said nothing of the kind is logical fallacy, and not to be encouraged.

truekid games
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Quote:To jump on someone for

Quote:
To jump on someone for hating learning

I was pointing out that he, like many others, don't recognize how often memory is used in games by presenting examples which clearly don't apply to any gamer in reality to demonstrate how this frequent misconception is wrong. I did not "jump on him", I would wager you applied negative connotations not present in the text because I didn't agree with him.

Also, I think you underestimate how close using memory from game to game is with using memory within a game. WHAT you are remembering is certainly different, but HOW you apply it is actually very similar, cognitively speaking.

AnEvenWeirderMove
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I wonder how different it

I wonder how different it really is.

My friend is of the camp that believes that if information was EVER visible, there is no reason for it to be hidden, since to play truly optimally, one must remember that information and take it into account.

This is, on the surface, true... however, as was pointed out there are several very realistic problems with that.

First is that people don't have the capacity to remember/recall that much information anyway, and in all likelihood don't have the reasonable cognitive capacity to even take that much information into account, even if it's visible. Unless that information can be reasonably stored into chunks, a person probably can't even consider it in a reasonable amount of time; the brain's "bandwidth" simply isn't that high. Therefore, someone taking into account every possible maneuver on their turn would spend an exponentially increasing amount of time making that decision the more information is available to them. In many cases, this isn't ideal or acceptable. However... in a case where a player is LIKELY to play this way (many 2-player abstracts or extremely heavy economic games fit the bill) isn't a strong player almost certain to take all that information into account regardless of whether or not it is available? These are the kinds of games in which it is almost expected that moves require careful planning, and that turns may require a length of time in thought before a decision is made... So in such a case, what purpose does obscuring the information serve?

Awaclus
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About revealing something and

About revealing something and then hiding it: Often, there are too many things to keep track of, no matter how good you are. Thus, the skill required here is not being able to remember it all, but rather, seeing which pieces of information are going to be the most important and ignoring any information you don't need.

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