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Recognize this trading mechanic?

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Dargon74
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Joined: 09/09/2012

I'm working on a game wherein players may trade commodities with other players and "the bank" -- which represents the rest of society in which the players are embedded. Players produce these commodities on their own using various production facilities that they own, but they may not be able to accomplish everything they want with what they have, forcing them to trade with other players. I've seen plenty of games where players can trade with each other at any ratio they want, but do so with the bank at some arbitrary, very expensive rate. Catan comes to mind as a simple example, but I'm looking for something more sophisticated that does not require calculation.

I've been playtesting this:

Each commodity is represented using a bunch of small tokens that are kept in clear cups. The cups are inscribed around the perimeter with "depth lines" that show how many tokens are in the cup at any given time. At the start of the game the cups are all very full. At any time you can quickly glance at the cup to see at what depth the tokens lie, and these lines have numbers on them that the players will be using when trading.

During the game players use some type of "production mechanic" to pull tokens from the cups in differing quantities. They may focus on being able to pull a lot of tokens from one cup, or tokens equally from all cups, or some combination. When a cup is full, it represents a low supply of that commodity within the community (since no one has any). Conversely, when the cup is near empty, it means there is a lot of supply bumping around, because lots of players have them.

The cups are numbered from high at the bottom, say 7, to low at the top, say 1.
When you trade with "the bank" you use the numbers on the lines as the ratio for the trade. If green tokens are riding at 6 (very low in the cup -- nearly everyone has some) and blue is riding at 2 (very full, almost no-one has them) then you have to give up 6 green tokens to get 2 blue ones (or 3:1). Blue tokens are just more valuable at this time because there is very little supply for your demand. Players are still allowed to trade with each other at any rate they want, but the "bank numbers" are certain to be a guide to the player's choices. If the tokens levels are all kept about equal then trade between token types is about equal, regardless of whether the overall supply is high or low, if the players "produce" tokens equally, or each player specializes in a different type.

But a problem occurs when a single player monopolizes one type of token, say blue, while all the other players and tokens are spread more evenly. The bank registers blue as being in "high supply" so the number will be high, say 6. Whereas the other tokens will be at mid range, say 3, meaning players supposedly get to trade their tokens with blue at around 2:1 -- two blue tokens for one regular token, even though one guy has nearly all the blues and no one else can progress without them. This does not follow reality very well; the value of blue should spike as one player begins to hoard it.

The monopolist can trade at any level he wants. Once he has so much supply that people are forced to get blue tokens only from him, he can ignore the bank's trade level and set his own price. Say, 10:1. (That's fine, there are other mechanics to deal with his monopoly within the game.) The real problem occurs in the run up to the bank running out of blue tokens. The bank actually allows people to trade blue at lower and lower levels right up until it runs out. That's just not right.

So the problem is that I need a good "monopoly trigger" that is quick and easy. Something that quickly recognizes when someone is "hoarding" without any players having to count, divide, etc.

So, any ideas? I have a few, but I don't want to "color" the outcome of other people's genius.
--Patrick

blackorse
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Joined: 09/06/2012
not a real solution to your

not a real solution to your problem but some comments

1. there may a path to victory which excludes blue tokens, if blue hoarder declines trade except very good rates for him, let him leave on his own way and other players may continue without blues
2. game "mars needs mechanics" has some commodity pricing mechanism, did u look at it?
3. bank may have reserve blues and supply them in auctions to other players. sources of these reserve maybe something like bank can confiscate 1-2 token from each player every say 2-3 turns and if more than half of a players tokens some color, confiscations come from those otherwise players give back to bank.
4. players griefing others is real possibility, always make sure to discourage those..
5. this clear cups to set token parities seems a good idea but make sure they are something which will not create obstacles in your possible road to manufacturing/producing the game
cheers

Evil ColSanders
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Joined: 12/08/2010
Trade value starts at 2 +

Trade value starts at 2 + number of players.
With 4 players, you can trade a commodity at a ratio of 6:1
Lower the ratio by 1 for every OTHER player who has the color commodity you are trying to trade.

If 2 other players have the BLUE commodity I'm trading, I can now trade BLUE at a ratio of 4:1.

Just a thought.

Orangebeard
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Joined: 10/13/2011
Higher Personal Cost?

Perhaps the bank cup sets a base rate, but that rate goes up for the player personally if they have a lot of that color. So the first few blue tokens are easy to get, but if you have a few, the cost goes up for more blue tokens?

Not sure how it would work, but I do like your idea of a system that allows you to read "levels" of tokens.

PenteVPM
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Joined: 09/07/2012
Modelling supply and demand

I like your idea of fluctuating trade ratios with the "bank".

Could the scale on the cups start with a high number, then decrease towards the middle and then increse again? So the scale would be something like 6-5-4-3-2-3-4-5-6. In the beginning the price of the commodity would be high, as there is virtually no supply. Then, when more commodities are produced, the price is driven down (like mass producing something in the real world). Then, if the players would need even more of the commodity, the price would be climbing again, as demand would be higher than the supply.

The players propably would still want to accumulate one resource - for example, if you have blue tokens, you would want even more of them in order to drive their price up. However, I think possible problems caused by this could be avoided by adjusting the overall quantity of commodities. If a typical play without hoarding would reduce blue tokens to a half (or less), it is unlikely that one player could be able to dominate the blue market individually.

- VPM

Dargon74
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Joined: 09/09/2012
Re: Higher personal cost

I'm not really looking to make the blue-o-phile *not* hoard his tokens. I think that's a fair tactic; I'm only trying to simulate some natural market conditions, if you will.

If you tried to buy up all the eggs in the world, everybody else would raise the price of eggs (unless you somehow bought them so fast that no one realized what was happening). That would raise the price for everybody. Looking at it that way, I think finding a way to make the blue hoarder's tokes more expensive -- everybody's blue tokes more expensive actually -- as the supply dwindles is the right way to go. I'm still averse to counting, though. :)
Thanks Orangebeard!

Dargon74
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Joined: 09/09/2012
Re: Modelling Supply and Demand

Oh yeah, so I left out player's being able to actually produce more units of product, didn't I?
That expense curve is the right idea, but I don't want the "low point" to be in a static location. I'm thinking something along the line of commodity trays for each of the players and for the "bank." The bank actually being some idealized group of "everybody else" as opposed to an institution.

Right now I'm imagining each player has their own "blue" tray with it's own numbers. Let the bank tray numbers run from 1 at the bottom to 7 at the top, and the player's trays run from 1 at the bottom to 7 at the top. As the bank's tokens are depleted, if the tokens end up evenly distributed among the players, then the value for that token drops. If any one player accumulates a disproportionate amount of the tokens, then the number his cup will be higher than everyone elses. Possibly even higher than the bank's. In play, we would use the highest value on any cup of the same color.

This is not the idea I had originally; it is based on input from you guys, thank you. I need to playtest this now. :)

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