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Scoring options for push your luck

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MarkD1733
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For my push your luck game, I have two scoring options I am contemplating. I am not sure if I should go one way or the other or use both. Here are the options:

1) knowing that each die has one face that can add to a bust situation, provide points based on the number of dice rolled, with the understanding that as difficulty increases, you will inevitably want/need to roll more dice.

2) knowing that the main point of the game is to press your luck and push things through certain spaces to an end space (i.e., a goal), score points based on the spaces you move through to the endpoint.

My original concept was to increase the difficulty of the things you push, and therefore increase the point value of those things based in their difficulty. I have shied away from that for the moment because I am not sure that risk-reward relationship drives the fun. I could be wrong, as this is not yet tested. So, you may want to consider this a third option.

There is a simpler fourth option—just use the number of things your pushed through as the scoring. The scores would be expected to be low without any other point scoring in the game.

Any thoughts on these options? How do you determine the best ways to score in a press your luck?

Thanks!

Mark

questccg
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Hmm... Not sure about that!?

Well Mark TBH I don't think either of these seem like REAL "Push-Your-Luck" (PYL) and that's my personal take on it. This mechanic (PYL) is close to me because I have been working a LONG time on a PYL expansion for TradeWorlds (TW). But how I see PYL is a bit different: risk vs. reward.

So in this NEW TW expansion (called "Smugglers Run"), players take on the roles of Space Pirates trying to STEAL opposing collection of credits. The idea is that each time a Pirate conquers an opposing starship, they earns more credits. There are FIVE (5) "Exit Strategies" for the Pirate.

Credits earned are based on a formula: Capacity + Firepower + Resistance.

And a LOW victory churns out 7 credits while a HIGH victory results in a whooping 78 credits on the other end!

The PYL mechanic is in the in the FIVE (5) "Exit Strategies". Here's an example: +5, +10, +15, +20 and +25.

And there are simple rules to govern what happens with the credits too. Like a Pirate vs. Normal Starship:

A> Pirate Victor = Earns additional Credits.
B> Pirate Loss = No Action
C> Starship Counter (1/6) = Loss of all Credits.

So the only danger is LOSING all your Credits if the opposing player rolls an identical Initiative roll.

But in a Pirate vs. Pirate engagement the rules are a bit different:

A> Pirate Victor = Earns additional Credits + Steals opponent's Credits.
B> Pirate Loss = No Action
C> Pirate Counter (1/6) = Opponent steals all Credits.

Again the COUNTER is the tough one where you opponent STEALS all of your Credits.

So there are are DUAL PYL mechanics in the same "Expansion". How far you go is up to you... That's the whole PYL mechanic. Losing a skirmish is not a big deal (as you can see by the rules)... It's only on a COUNTER where things get a bit messy (and those odds are 1 in 6 and can be mitigated by cards too...)

This makes it that most players will want to continue to battle and earn more BONUS credits (in my example up to +25)... While ensuring not to be the one on an unfortunate Initiative Roll (1D6 Die roll).

The "Exit Strategies" (or Bonuses) allow for a Pirate to battle 1 to 5 times and each time the BONUS for a Victory goes up... You can be a nasty pirate and only target WEAK starships (which will give you 13 Credits as the minimum: 7 + 5 BONUS = 13 Credits in total). And then 7 + 10 = 17 Credits and so forth...

***

Re-reading your OP... Leads me to "believe" that the hidden Option #3 sounds a bit closer to my own version of PYL.

MarkD1733 wrote:
...My original concept was to increase the difficulty of the things you push, and therefore increase the point value of those things based in their difficulty...

There are other methods by which to induce a even SWING-IER amount of LUCK to your PYL: for example draw a RANDOM die from a bag or draw a card from a deck. And this explains the nature of the addition. Like a RANDOM die can be an EASY die to avoid (with only one Bust) or hard (three Busts) but it is pure LUCK when you draw from a bag... Same goes from cards and then Deck-Building for future draws...

***

I just wanted to make another small comment. In TW, the PYL is point-based. Your goal is to COLLECT 500 Credits (I forgot to mention that). So sometimes you can accelerate (and take a chance and be fortunate) and other times you waste time (by losing Credits)... That's the victory goal which means many people are going to want to go the "Extra Distance" to get +25 or +50 Credits on their 5th Attack...

Plus you can STEAL and that adds to the tension and PYL...!

I'm encouraging you to see that there are MANY ways to implement PYL. Adding tension is the GOAL and forcing players to go "one-step-further" is what adds to the tension.

I hope I shed some light on PYL and how to make it MORE FUN and add TENSION. I'm still not finished with the TW "Expansion" (for PYL) ... I'm still in need of a prototype... But the rules are written down and generally make sense.

Cheers!

questccg
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Also ...

Another option with the "Die-in-a-bag" RANDOM selection ... How you BUILD your "Dice-Pool" can vary the ODD of getting better dice (less Bust-ier). IDK much about your game, but IF you could BUY "Dice" for your own POOL. And each one of the dice has some kind of VALUE.

Or IF you have three (3) colors of dice: Green, Yellow and Red.

The Green dice only have ONE (1) "Bust" where as the Yellow have TWO (2) and the Red ones have THREE (3)...

You can have some kind of Event that triggers a purchase of a DIE for your OWN Bag (Pool of dice) and maybe you pick RANDOMLY by drawing an ADDITIONAL dice to add of your own Bag... Meaning that the selection for the POOL is ALSO RANDOM.

You can be lucky... But it's also a question of ODDS too... To ADD another die means that let's say the bag was seeded with 5 Green, 4 Yellow and 3 Red. The more people draw Green dice the more the odds that a Yellow or Red die will be drawn.

Again I don't know much about your game... So I'm just sharing some general ideas based on what I've read so far!

Cheers.

questccg
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Some additional ideas

If you can control the BUY of the dice from the Dice Pool, you can maybe have an option to "Upgrade" a die given some other EVENT in your game. So you're NOT forcibly stuck with a Red die in your bag... A some point in time, you can earn a chance to PAY to upgrade it to a Yellow or even Green Die.

That's like more depth of strategy and makes it that your Dice Pool can be altered under certain circumstances. And that's real cool! Again just some extra ideas that I was thinking about ... HOW(?) they might be applicable to your game.

Again all the best with your design!

Note #1: Another option could be a Dice Auction. So you have three (3) dice: Green, Yellow and Red. Each one starts with a VALUE of "1". But as player BUY a color of die, the VALUE goes UP (maybe 2x ...):

So something like: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, etc. And at some point making the dice TOO EXPENSIVE that a player may buy a Yellow or Red one.

I honestly don't know WHY a player would BUY a "Red" one (TBH). So there is a FLAW in this idea. But I still figured I'd share... Just to give you some other ideas to think about and maybe find your own solution to this problem!

Note #2: Maybe you have timed EVENTs which mean after "X" turns, everyone MUST buy one (1) die. And continue with this until a maximum is reached (IDK 5 or 6 sounds good for a Dice Pool)... Again because I'm not sure how your game works, I'm just suggesting GENERAL ideas and you can figure out if they are HEROES or ZEROES in terms of ideas.

questccg
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Another alternative

If you watch a VIDEO of "Century: Spice Road" (CSR) ... They offer up a interesting (and IMHO adaptable) mechanic which shows that the if you want a card further down the chain, you must pay for all the ones on the LHS:

https://youtu.be/Nywr1QGWMbY?t=176

So I don't know what "resources" (if any) your game has... But the idea is that you can have "5" Dice on the table to be bought. The First die cost "0" to buy. The Next die cost "x" and the Next die cost "x + y" and so forth. Obviously that means that the 5th die is the MOST costly...

This is sort of like the Auction Mechanic but "inverted a bit".

The other way is like in the VIDEO: You must PAY "resources" to ALL dice to the LEFT of the die you buy. Obviously in CSR you only pay "1 Yellow" cube. But you could have a VARIABLE cost determined by EACH card...

And NOW ... ALL OF A SUDDEN you have a REASON to buy a "Red" die!!! Because there are a LOT of "resources + the die" which make it a valuable purchase. Yes it may be tougher to draw and roll with a RED die... But at the same time you got a bunch of RESOURCES for choosing to get that die!

IDK if you understood this explanation. It's a bit of CSR + some Adaptation like the variable "Resource" Cost to "bypass" and buy to the RHS of any card.

If anything sounds unclear, just let me know and I'll drop another example or re-word my thoughts and ideas.

Best!

Note #1: I presented TWO (2) options for handling which die to buy:

1. First (Left-most) Die cost "0". The Next die cost "x", the one after that costs "x + y", and so forth. Making the 5th die the most costly. This is one "solution" but it has its flaws too...

2. Whenever you DON'T buy the First (Left-most) die, you must PAY the corresponding price for EACH die to the RIGHT. So First (Left-most) Die costs "0". The Next die costs "x", the one after that costs "y" and affect "x" by "+z" in terms of cost.

Method #1 while simpler ... Isn't really EXACT in that more dangerous dice don't necessarily mean they are offset by a "reward" for purchasing them.

Method #2 does EXACTLY THAT: rewards you for buy a "crappier" die in return for maybe some really needed "resources".

I added this because I didn't clarify BOTH methods above.

let-off studios
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PYL Feedback

I'd like to hear more from MarkD1733 regarding game details. How does push-your-luck fit in to the game? What kind of feeling do you want to establish with your players?

Have you playtested any of these methods yet to observe any connection to what you imagine the feeling will be?

Have you considered simultaneous play, and simultaneous decision making regarding "staying in" or "dropping out" for future throws of the dice?

I feel like I know so little about what you're trying to accomplish or simulate that any kind of advice will be not-exactly-useless-but-pretty-close-to-that. :)

MarkD1733
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More on my PYL mechanic

So, basically the PYL is for a chase (but not a race). The initial dice pool has a minimum number of dice based on the thing you are chasing, and each time you meet or beat the required values, you push the thing one step further towards the finish. For each of those dice (d6s), 1s are “the bust value.” At this time, roll three 1s and you bust. Once you choose the number of dice to roll for that first roll, you cannot change the number of “regular” dice you roll. The PYL is that with each new “push” roll, you must add another die. Each new die however only has 1s, and each subsequent die has one additional “1” (the first die added has one 1; the second has two 1s; etc, just like questccg suggested). While the path for which you push out the thing is not necessarily the same each time, the last space before crossing the finish is. That said, it could take 1-5 pushes before the thing is across the finish. Each successful push earns you points which can be secured by stopping at any point prior to busting. Not meeting the requirements is not busting…it just won’t push. I envision that busting, instead, gives you an end of game penalty (tbd based on the scoring).

So, when it comes to incentivizing the dice rolling, do I aim the scoring at the number of dice (from the initial decision), or the spaces traversed (either with set points or possibly random point values). If I work an increasing scoring (such as pyramidal) for each successful push, does that matter?

Does this help?

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments to date.

let-off studios
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Dice-to-Risk Balance

MarkD1733 wrote:
So, when it comes to incentivizing the dice rolling, do I aim the scoring at the number of dice (from the initial decision), or the spaces traversed (either with set points or possibly random point values). If I work an increasing scoring (such as pyramidal) for each successful push, does that matter?
That sounds like tough odds to face...! Having it be a race between players, or even a solo game with an advancing "wall of doom" closing in, can ratchet up a lot of tension.

That being said, I think the number of spaces advanced on a given turn should be what's rewarding you for points. If someone uses too few dice, they won't advance far. If someone uses a lot of dice, they may move further but can also bust-out early and can be held back on future turns.

I'd suggest that if you want to reward the risk, consider testing out a game with points rewarded for the number of spaces advanced on a turn. If you want to add considerable tension, grant bonus points on a turn based on the number of players already dropped out. So if there are three players and one of them drops out, the remaining two earn a bonus point on the next round. If two players drop out, then the third who is still in earns two bonus points.

Increasing that point bonus either exponentially or pyramidially (is that the word?) will increase the reward for taking the risk. Playtesting, of course, will bear this out and let you know if a more complex scoring system is worth it.

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