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Arena type card game?

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jedite1000
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This is not at all in development yet this is just an idea i had and i would like to flesh it out a bit before i decide if i should go through with it or not

So my idea was a mix of deck construction and dice mechanics with 2 to 4 players

The theme does not matter at this point but i was thinking of an element type game, i think people call it rock paper scissors, we each deck will have characters associated with the element and one is weak against the other etc

Anyway i dont know exactly what i want but i want dice mechanics to be part of it. for an example and this is only an example as its just brainstorming. I want to have a little bit of pokemon mechanics but not too much that its a clone

Basically ill have the HP in the corner and the text space it will have an attack and power and instead of using the energy it will have like a dice icons instead, so it is a bit random, for an example this fire dude has an attack of 50 and the icons have like energy ball (energy ball will represent the characters element) so if the attack has like a fireball icon then the energy ball will be a fireball when it is rolled.

That is just the basic combat mechanic, but i want to make it so you can have a 4 player battle royale mode, I dunno if i should randomize the targers either so what i mean is there are 4 cards on the field from the 4 players and they are place on the field in a shape of a circle or something or better yet each field space has a number so 1 player plays a creature on number 3 while the another player plays one on number 2 and so on and so forth. There will be another die to use during your roll turn, this die has numbers on it 1-4 and for example if i roll fireball and number 2, then i can attack the character on number 2, and depends on the creatures element it might me a nature type or a water type so my attack is either strong or weak against it.

I also kind of want the attacked player to be involved during the attacking players turn, so maybe they can use some counter dice or something like that to help them defend their characters...or maybe not its just an idea, i probably dont want the game too random as i want some stragetic plays from players.

So what do you think? anyone want to help me brainstorm some more?

jedite1000
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Not sure about multiple

Not sure about multiple creatures or 1 creature per round, I was thinking if it is multiple creatures, then the arena will need to be bigger, let's say the arena has 10 card zones (here is an example of the field) https://i.imgur.com/PPhH75Y.png

Anyway, on your turn you can place a creature on any of the 10 zones, each zone could have a special ability or something that benefits your creature(s) and you can move them to other empty zones for whatever reason. Maybe a creature who benefits from long range attacks then places the creature at the end of the area so your opponent's creatures cant attack it if they rely on melee attacks.

So the field itself is a mechanic and not just the cards

I was thinking with the zones, it won't be 10 but the whole arena would be zones so you can place your cards anywhere. I also might add terrain obstacles like a couple of large rocks and if a card is behind the rock then cards such as range cards cannot target it

questccg
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I have an idea for you...

Based on that "10 Zone" concept... I had an idea for you.

Instead of "10 Zones" which seem pretty random, what if your game had FOUR (4) concentric SQUARE Zones. Here look at the sample:

From the "Outside" all around the table (Zone #4) to the "Inside" (Zone #1). Player can only attack a Player in the SAME Zone. Obviously the game would be designed for Four (4) players or less.

The Zone defines HOW MANY creatures can be played into the "Zone". So in Zone #1, each player can only play one (1) creature into that "Zone". But in Zone #4, each player can play up to four (4) creatures.

Creatures ENTER the play area from Zone #4 and may move once per turn to an adjacent Zone. So from Zone #4, a player can move up to three (3) creatures into Zone #3. From Zone #3, a player can move up to two (2) creatures into Zone #2 OR move back into Zone #4 as many as allowed (up to 4).

This allows for up to 10 creatures per player (a bit like your original Zone concept but a bit more "organized")...

You could also have a RULE that says something like FIRST player to WIN four (4) BATTLES in "Zone #1" is the WINNER of the game (obviously left for playtesting — but you get the idea). Could maybe be 3 or 5 ... depends on what playtesting shows as the better goal. For now I'm saying 4 battles, because it seems to go in tandem with the 4 Zones.

IDK... It's something you could play around with... See if it's do-able or not. I think it's a bit less "chaotic" and ordered in the sense that what you could HAVE are "Bonus" Abilities for certain ZONES. Like one unit is a Ranged Combatant Creature that is best in Zone #4 or #3. Meanwhile you can have a Melee Combatant Creature that is best for Zone #2 or #1...

Of course this puts the restriction that from 2 to 4 player can play the game... Not too much of a restriction — IF you like the concept...

Anyhow that what "sparked" your ZONE IDEA. If you don't like it ... no worries. Feel free to go with it (if you like it) or not (if you don't like it).

Cheers!

Update: You could also do something like use an RPS-3 (Rock/Paper/Scissors) where "Melee beats Ranged beat Flying beats Melee". So Flying Creatures could attack from ANY "Zone" provided there are no Ranged units in a zone that acts like a "Blocker".

For example: A Winged Stallion in Zone #4 can ATTACK a Swordsman in Zone #1. But if there is a Elven Archer in Zone #3 ... the Stallion is "Blocked"...

I think you could have some SERIOUS "strategy" going on... with this kind of setup. Anyway just some of my thoughts.

jedite1000
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That sounds interesting, I

That sounds interesting, I was originally going to have let's say the first player to kill 5 cards or something wins, but I like your idea of players entering the zone 1 and killing enough players in zone 1 wins, but it does sound a bit too hectic like cards in zone 1 won't be able to kill anyone due to the range sniping them, but I guess having cards in zone 3 could block the range in zone 4.

But I have to play around with it and see what seems best

This was my plan originally but now i might rethink it
https://i.imgur.com/X4b4zGg.png

questccg
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I hear you!

Ya that seems like a more "complexe" concept. Mine is a bit simpler... But your concept may be "difficult" to implement. Like you need a "grid" and then there needs to be "judgement calls" on who can or cannot "block".

And your concern about Zone #1 Melee units being "sniped" by Zone #4 Ranged units is valid... But all you need is a Melee unit in Zone #3... But I see you get the idea...

Fundamentally I think the 4 Zones ... gives you exactly what you want:

  • RPS-3: Rock-Paper-Scissor Action
  • Zones: Multiple ways of arranging and attacking using formations
  • Blocking: Ways to counter cards by having cards in other zones

Playtest it and see if it work or not. It's just an idea. Sometimes ideas sound good but don't work in "reality".

From what I see, the GRID implementation would be a challenge and many players will have to find ways to block which could lead in some "line-of-sight" issues... One player will say: "I can just make it by your 'rock'". And the opponent could disagree saying: "No my 'rock' is in your way"... etc.

Give it a try... I think (not sure) that 4 Zones gives you the SAME (or similar) action as you have setup with your 10 Zones. But it's your game, I just brought up the suggestion...

jedite1000
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It is why i post on here, so

It is why i post on here, so i can get ideas and help from the community.

So if it is a class-based system ie: range, melee etc, how do you think elements would work with this system, since element is the main theme of the game, every creature has a element type and are weak or strong against other elements

questccg
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One other "tidbit"

If you have a Melee unit in Zone #1... And you want to prevent a Ranged unit in Zone #4 to "snipe" down your unit... As we BOTH agree, all you need to do is place a Melee unit in Zone #3.

BUT!... If you want to KILL that Ranged unit in Zone #4 ... What you need to do is put a Melee unit in Zone #4!!!

So that also sets up some cool dynamics too... Do you first BLOCK and then KILL or do you straight off take a chance and KILL first! Leaving your Melee unit in Zone #1 vulnerable to an "sniped" attack...

You definitely understood the idea. Make for some interesting formations and way to deal with opposing units.

The only concern is the "bullet-proof" formation. Can you devise a formation that is "unbeatable"...? IDK... That takes some more analysis and it's 12:00 AM... I'm too tired for such an exhaustive exercise at the moment.

Give it a try and tell me what you think... Like I said, I won't be offended if it doesn't work... Or even if you want to explore other ideas too.

Cheers!

questccg
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What do you think of "Damage" modifiers???

jedite1000 wrote:
how do you think elements would work with this system, since element is the main theme of the game, every creature has a element type and are weak or strong against other elements

Well instead of just Melee/Ranged/Flying ... maybe you could ADD TWO (2) elements that relate to DAMAGE not "targeting".

Like "weaker against" Element A and "stronger against" Element B. So each card would have those kinds of BONUSES which affect how DAMAGE is calculated!

Like say my Melee "Iron" Swordsman is "weaker" against a Melee "Fire" Demon, when those 2 Melee units battle each other... You said you wanted to use DICE... Sounds like an AWESOME idea. Maybe the "weaker" means that the "Iron" Swordsman does -2 Damage or that the "Fire" Demon does +5 Damage...

Something along those lines could WORK...

Note: Think about how you could use the DICE and have modifiers to use ELEMENTS like you suggested... It's way too late... Maybe I'll post tomorrow night ... Since it's Father's Day and I have a lot planned for tomorrow. So I'll be back in the late evening.

I should go to bed too... But think about that... Still in-line with what you have in mind (I think). I'm not sure HOW you wanted to use DICE...

jedite1000
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Thanx for your added input. I

Thanx for your added input. I will go with your class idea but i might tweak it. my new idea is there will not be any restrictions like if a melee is in zone 3, the ranger in zone 4 cant attack

The other change i am considering is the board layout, i probably wont use the zone layout you suggested but ill change my board idea with terrain maps, so there will be more than 1 board design with different terrains. hopefully, i can add heaps of terrain maps

The cards will have added features such as direction and movement mechanics

so if there is an arrow only on top of the card, it can only attack in that direction, you are free to rotate your card to whatever direction you want to attack. A class such as a hunter class can attack any squares on top of the card, so a straight line all the way to the end of the map

The movement mechanic - cards like the hunter can only move 1 square per turn. others can move more such as melee classes.

I would like the players to have action tokens so on their turn they can use the action token and choose one action to do such as move or attack. On the next players turn they get the action token back. I think each card they have on the field determines how many actions they can take. so if you have 2 cards, you can use 1 token for 1 card and the other token for the 2nd card or if you want you can spend all the tokens on 1 card, so you can use token to move and then attack with 1 card.

Dice mechanic- im still not sure of this but i might not use custom dice i might just use a d6 die with 1-6 numbers so instead of rolling a fireball you roll a 1 and that is the fireball ability.

I think i covered everything for now

https://i.imgur.com/Wum1f8w.png

only thing i am worried about right now are the cards starting positions, like should cards able to be played on any white spaces or should they be played on a certain side?

What might be fun with the terrain idea is, players can come up with their own terrain, by just drawing on a piece of paper or using photoshop, no terrain should be illegal to use

I also decided on my artstyle, each creature will be an orb looking creature. they are easy to draw so i can create lots of them

https://i.imgur.com/Q0zWl3v.png

I have created these types of creatures before in my old game, these creatures are called orblings

jedite1000
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Any more advice?

Any more advice?

questccg
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Square cards versus Rectangular ones

jedite1000 wrote:
Any more advice?

Your terrain concept would work better if you used SQUARE 2.5" x 2.5" cards. This would mean that you could ROTATE the cards by 90 degrees and have attacking in the Top, Bottom, Right, Left PLUS diagonals too (like Top Right or Top Left) and you could exhaust Action Points to TURN the card like 180 degrees to attack "backwards" (for example).

Anyhow something else you might want to consider...

jedite1000
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that's cool and all, though

that's cool and all, though 2.5 might be too small as ill need a lot of info on the character cards and i want to cater for both kind of markets 1 is a box with all the cards available and maybe a map or 2, and the other a tcg kind of booster pack, which is cheaper and more affordable and i would like when people purchase a booster they can play straight away, just download a map ill will eventually upload and they can use coins or something for action tokens.

Also, having poker size cards, people can hold them in their hand easier.

So the players will have a deck of creatures and to start they draw i dunno 3 cards. i don't think there will be any restrictions like rare monsters or something, you can play any card in your hand straight away. So to start each player places a card down in a summoning zone. I will have multiple summon zones around on the outside of the board. they can then move the card onto the board in from of the summon zone, then they can use action token to either move or attack. if you want to attack then roll a die if it lands on a number that is on your card then it attacks.

I am thinking about the RNG aspect of the dice rolls though, should players have a backup if they fail the roll, so if the card requires a 1 and you dont roll it, then you basically lost that action, should i make it if you fail the roll you can move 1 space or something, though i feel it would be exploited because why would u use an action to move when you can use the action to attack, roll and fail just to move anyway. I want it to be fair for the failed roll but i dont want people to exploit it

jedite1000
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https://i.imgur.com/jGFnD1x.p

https://i.imgur.com/jGFnD1x.png

Just a quick mockup on what i want my game to have

jedite1000
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just want to step away from

just want to step away from the terrain board for now and focus on fleshing out the character cards. Here is an example so far

a quick mockup I did

https://i.imgur.com/AHeEqsU.png

I want each card to have a defence objection, so the player that gets attack still has a chance to defend their cards. it is heavily rng but its better than just waiting until it's your turn

jedite1000
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Question, is the dice rolls

Question, is the dice rolls to attack too random? like you will be doing it every time you want to attack, is that the smartest move? would using symbols on dice be better than a normal d6. I don't mind when you have to defend you can roll the dice to try and get 1 number to block the whole attack, but it might be a bit too random when attacking. any ideas?

jedite1000
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I am racking my brain trying

I am racking my brain trying to figure out the dice to make it less random

let-off studios
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Manipulate Dice

There are a couple threads here at BGDF discussing ways to mitigate the randomness of dice outcomes. Have a look round and I'm certain you'll find some.

This thread is an example:
https://www.bgdf.com/forum/game-creation/design-theory/dice-re-roll-or-r...

Another suggestion: you can give the units abilities to adjust the results that pertain to them, or to adjacent units, or to a targeted unit. Maybe one unit can flip a die to its opposite face. Maybe all 1's count as 6's, or all 6's reduce the defender's response by half.

If you're using dice, you may want to find ways to have them interact with one another.

jedite1000
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hmmm, that could work, unless

hmmm, that could work, unless there is an alternative instead of using dice, like i could just have the player select an ability on the card but don't think that is the smartest way

jedite1000
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What do you guys think about

What do you guys think about using dice as an optional source, like these dice are so powerful you would need them to win but are still optional

What i mean is, the charactes can already attack without using dice, like they each have only 1 basic attack, such as firepunch deal 30 damage whatever. Over the course of the game you acquire these dice somehow and if you are a risk taker you can use your turn to roll the dice to use your character's special ability which cant be used without dice. Only thing is how would i acquire the dice mid game?

Its just an idea which hope limits the randomness of the game

questccg
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How I am "planning" to use DICE

Many people when they see DICE being used in a game, immediately decide that the game is NOT for them. This is because of the Randomness and the luck that is usually associated with players rolling dice.

But there are some ways to USE dice without having so much randomness and basically offering more strategy too.

So one of my ideas is that each "Game", one (1) player rolls 4 dice. Each dice represents one of three (3) "Resources" and one (1) Wildcard.

Those 4 values are ALL used by each OTHER player too. They are the 4 values for that "Game". Each game features five (5) "Rounds" and should resolve itself within 25 to 30 minutes.

There is DICE "randomness" but IT IS THE SAME for every player. How they use the "Wildcard" (if they use it or not...) to substitute one of the other dice and HOW... More strategy and not just randomness.

So IF you roll "Red" Food and get a 2. Everybody get "2" units of Food for the "Round". What this means is that "Attacks" which require Food (or satisfying Hunger) only have "2" units of it.

And this has very dramatic strategic effects. Because A> You can't play cards that require Food since there isn't much of that "Resource" B> You may need to balance your Deck to ensure you have cards requiring ALL "Resources" not just one... Or you could get "royally" screwed with a bad roll (like Food = 2, Wildcard = 1).

I have a few problems with my own game (turn-order, how to score/win the game) ... but LUCK (or dice randomness) is not one of them.

That's what I'm using for my game... Maybe this can give you your own ideas regarding how you can use dice more effectively to add strategy as opposed to purely injecting luck.

Cheers!

jedite1000
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oh i see, what you just said

oh i see, what you just said gave me a lightbulb

so like you said before but the rolling the dice would be only for 1 player and not everyone so once per turn on a players turn they roll a bunch of dice lets say 4

the dice are kind of your action for the turn, (the dice would have to be customized so cant be a classic d6)

anyway i am player 1, i roll 4 or so dice and the results are as followed

move
move
attack
rotate

I can use these dice in any order

so I move 1, then rotate to face you, then attack and then move again so I am out of the way from your next attack if you survived. Is that still too random? should i add a reroll face or something, what that means is i choose a face i didn't want and pick that die and reroll again as well as the reroll die, so if you land on a reroll you can re roll 2 dice

questccg
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Some precision

jedite1000 wrote:
...so like you said before but the rolling the dice would be only for 1 player and not everyone so once per turn on a players turn they roll a bunch of dice lets say 4...

anyway i am player 1, i roll 4 or so dice and the results are as followed

move
move
attack
rotate

I can use these dice in any order...

In my version, ALL PLAYERS use those 4 dice in "Whatever" order they want. This way it's not about LUCK but figuring out what your BEST possible move is using the dice roll that was performed by ONE (1) Player.

Note: Each player rolling their OWN dice = A LOT OF RANDOMNESS... What people HATE about the use of dice. However if you adopted a one (1) Player rolls and then the other players must use the dice to their best ability... Well that's a good type of randomness because it leads to a lot of "strategy" rather than having "lucky rolls" or "re-rolls" as you put it.

jedite1000
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yeah your version is ok for

yeah your version is ok for your game, i didn't want to copy it so i went in a slightly different direction, however, thanx to your idea, i was finally able to climb over the wall as i was struggling so hard to come up with a good dice mechanic.

players will have somewhat control of the dice rolls

So ive been brainstorming what faces i should have on the die and here is an example

Move
Attack
Rotate
Summon

for the other 2 faces i could add more or just repeat 2 of the 4 faces

Anyway at the start of the game everyone is able to play a character for free. then its players 1 turn (me)

I roll and the results are move, move, summon, attack
and here is the control part, i decide to keep 1 move and 1 summon and put it in my bank, i can save the rolls till my next turn, however i will be rolling less dice on my next turn

Everyone had a turn and its my turn again

I roll move, attack, attack, so i move using my recent roll, then i use 1 move die from my bank and i decide to keep my summon result

The summon face is used to summon extra characters on the field, you get your first 1 free but to play more cards you will need a summon result.

Ok i have 2 summon in my bank, (dunno if i should have some cards require more than 1 summon face, so really powerful cards require like 3 summon results).

So you can keep the dice in the bank for as long as you like however there is a drawback if a card you control on the field is killed then the dice in your bank are reset so you have to use those dice again on your next turn, meaning you have to protect your cards on the field if you want to use your bank dice

let-off studios
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Cards vs. Dice = Cards Usually Win

questccg wrote:
In my version, ALL PLAYERS use those 4 dice in "Whatever" order they want. This way it's not about LUCK but figuring out what your BEST possible move is using the dice roll that was performed by ONE (1) Player.
I would like this even more if the actions were drawn from a deck. Not only will players have the same pool of actions to choose from each round, but there can be a fixed probability of the available actions within a single game, designated by the designer.

I would try something like this, just to see how it turns out:

Say for example there are five possible actions in a game, and there would be four available for each round of the game. I make 10 cards, two for each action. At the start of every round, I pick out 1 card of each action to establish the action deck. This ensures that every action has at least a small chance of appearing in this round.

I mix the rest of the cards and draw two, adding them to the five original cards face-down. I discard the cards that weren't drawn, and leave them face-down (perhaps saving them for future rounds). Finally I mix the seven available cards and draw 4 of them, leaving these face-up. These would be the available actions for the round.

If I've kept the un-drawn action cards available off to the side, I can draw from them to construct the action deck for future rounds of the game. This way, it's not always going to be a "summon-heavy" or "rotate-heavy" round. There are possibilities for each of the actions to come out, more or less at an equivalent rate.

This, coming from a guy who LOVES dice games. :D

jedite1000
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i was actually thinking of

i was actually thinking of using cards before, however, i kind of dont want players manage too many cards. there is the deck itself and players draw 3 character cards at the start then every turn they draw until they have 5 cards in hand, that's the limit. There will be a deck of 15-20 cards anyway. Anything higher than that is too much. I did a small playtest of the dice mechanic and it flowed pretty well. I should be ready to create proper test cards now with abilities and whatnot

wob
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to be honest i havn't read

to be honest i havn't read the entire thread just the original post so sorry if this is redundant. firstly i like the basic concept it sounds interesting and worth pursuing, secondly the rock-paper-scissors maths works best with odd numbers ( it results in less ties and fiddly stuff)

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