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Card Game for 2 players

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Kevinct
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So I've been working on the concept of card games for quite some time now and I think I've got something pretty coherent to finally share here.

The basic ideas for this game borrow pretty heavily from my experiences with collectible card games like Magic, Yugioh, and Pokemon. I've set up some basic design rules for myself to follow to try to eliminate some things I didn't like about other card games.

Design rules:
All players have equal access to all available cards
No additional components necessary to play the game (no dice, tokens, health counters)

After I knew these basics about what I want to design I have a few other things I wanted to avoid while making this game for my own sake. No tapping cards to use abilities or to attack, no land cards or energies, and no health on either cards or for each player. I also want to avoid using a fantasy theme because I think it's been done to death, I'd like to keep it as abstract as possible.

How the game will work I've got somewhat figured out, all the details are likely to change once I make a prototype and start to play with it.

Basically you have a set of every card in the game with enough copies for both players.
You each build a deck out of these cards to battle each other.
The objective of the game is a bit fuzzy because you could have multiple goals in a given duel as the cards themselves can change the objectives.
I want to avoid using a life counter so attacking your opponent directly isn't an option.
Combat is a bit tricky as well because I don't want to use counters or tapping like other games have before, so it boils down to a Rock-Paper-Scissors mechanic for determining the winner when creatures fight.
You can play other cards that are not creatures to modify rules of the game or do some specific task like drawing additional cards.
All cards have a cost to play them and also act as a resource so that I don't have to include additional cards or other pieces.

A few issues I have so far would be how many card types are necessary for a game like this (spells, monsters, items)
Whether or not colors and types should be used to avoid throwing in all the optimal cards when building a deck.
Trying to improve the combat in the game to make it interesting for the players without adding too much complexity, or if it's even possible to remove combat entirely while keeping the interaction between players.

Any thoughts or criticism are helpful :)

radioactivemouse
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Find something new...don't borrow too much.

Kevinct wrote:
So I've been working on the concept of card games for quite some time now and I think I've got something pretty coherent to finally share here.

The basic ideas for this game borrow pretty heavily from my experiences with collectible card games like Magic, Yugioh, and Pokemon. I've set up some basic design rules for myself to follow to try to eliminate some things I didn't like about other card games.

Design rules:
All players have equal access to all available cards
No additional components necessary to play the game (no dice, tokens, health counters)

After I knew these basics about what I want to design I have a few other things I wanted to avoid while making this game for my own sake. No tapping cards to use abilities or to attack, no land cards or energies, and no health on either cards or for each player. I also want to avoid using a fantasy theme because I think it's been done to death, I'd like to keep it as abstract as possible.

How the game will work I've got somewhat figured out, all the details are likely to change once I make a prototype and start to play with it.

Basically you have a set of every card in the game with enough copies for both players.
You each build a deck out of these cards to battle each other.
The objective of the game is a bit fuzzy because you could have multiple goals in a given duel as the cards themselves can change the objectives.
I want to avoid using a life counter so attacking your opponent directly isn't an option.
Combat is a bit tricky as well because I don't want to use counters or tapping like other games have before, so it boils down to a Rock-Paper-Scissors mechanic for determining the winner when creatures fight.
You can play other cards that are not creatures to modify rules of the game or do some specific task like drawing additional cards.
All cards have a cost to play them and also act as a resource so that I don't have to include additional cards or other pieces.

A few issues I have so far would be how many card types are necessary for a game like this (spells, monsters, items)
Whether or not colors and types should be used to avoid throwing in all the optimal cards when building a deck.
Trying to improve the combat in the game to make it interesting for the players without adding too much complexity, or if it's even possible to remove combat entirely while keeping the interaction between players.

Any thoughts or criticism are helpful :)

For some reason, this description reminds me of a new game that just came out called "Epic". While not exactly the same, the "no energies" and "build your deck before you play" aspects are like this game.

Even big companies are having a hard time bringing something new to the card game market and I know people are out there looking for something new. "Epic" is hailed a s "good" game, but is not rated highly. "Ashes" is another card game that just came out and it's highly criticized as being a MtG clone. Bushiroad's line of card game (Cardfight! Vanguard, Buddy Fight, and Weiss Schwarz) are ok games and have some new things, but really bog you down with mechanics, ability text that's hard to read, and the ever awful Magic: The Gathering distribution method (which is a great model, but clearly run to death). Rock-Paper-Scissors is something already found in games like Pokemon, Earthcore (app), and Yomi (among other games).

It's really really hard to bring something new to the table of 2 player dueling card games without feeling like some other card game out there already and making it simple for the masses to understand. Even when you have something, you still have to work hard to convince the world that your game is different from all the others.

I know, I've been playing card games since the early 1990s. I'm currently teaching game theory to college students and I've been working in the game industry (digital and analog) since 2003.

In my opinion, you need to bring something that's never been done in a card game before.

My game, Conquest at Kismet tries to bring something completely new to the table, but only has 2 main mechanics: The Combat Stack (http://www.bgdf.com/blog/combat-stack), and the Time System (http://www.bgdf.com/blog/time-mechanic)...everything else is standard card game fare (2 decks, special powers, avatar card, etc.) Ultimately, you'll have to take in a few card game institutions, there's jut no way around it (or is there?).

While I believe I've achieved bringing something new to the table, my monumental task is trying to convince the masses that it IS different. Even when you think you have something, your job has just started. Of course I have my share of criticisms, but I showed really well at BGG Con a couple of weeks ago...I think I'm on to something.

But I believe there are new mechanics out there that are ripe for the taking. I've been seeing a lot of this game called Gruff and that is pretty unique as a card game (incredibly thematic too). I played Puzzle Strike recently, which is a little weighty (all cards are poker chips), but is very unique in terms of using one resource as a timer, attack, defense, and life point.

To be honest, I think you should find some mechanic that no one has done in a card game before, then build on that. It appears hard, but I think it's totally possible.

Kevinct
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Thanks for taking the time to

Thanks for taking the time to read through all my craziness! I looked at the Epic game that you mentioned and I really like the way they put it together. The game play seems a bit shallow and you're right too close to MTG for a standalone game but that might improve as they add more into it.

The rock-paper-scissors thing is found in tons of games for sure, but it seemed like an elegant solution to the problem in the design. Each monster needs to be unique and yet fit under a simple umbrella that is easy for new players to understand and creates interesting combat choices. Of course I'll put my own spin on it and test it out with a prototype to see how well it works.

I looked at the Yomi game you mentioned and I think it's actually some good news for me! I like their mechanic and obviously it works for there game so I'm hoping my version can also work without bringing the combat down to a crawl.

I don't believe it's difficult to bring something new to the two player card game at all. In fact it seems like it hasn't been explored thoroughly enough. Obviously a fantasy theme works great! And we all know combat between monsters is a great way to create interaction between players and keep them engaged even on their opponents turn. What happens when we explore other themes or don't use combat between monsters at all? Then you have something totally different. The conventions have only just been established in this genre of game and yes MTG has blazed a trail for us, but we still have tons of options to look into in my opinion.

It's not our job to convince other players that out games are different or special, that's up to the players to decide for themselves. Yugioh and Magic work with some similar conventions sure, but they are very different games that appeal to very different players.

I also think you're right on the button with bringing something new to card games. I wouldn't bother to make a card game at all if it wasn't different to the other games out there. I don't want to play a weaker version of yugioh or magic. I want to be surprised and intrigued by how different mechanics fit into the game. I want to learn something new, and challenge conventions that are established. I want to see different players that never got into these games getting something out of it.

After looking at your mechanics I really like the time idea and using the full rotation of the cards. This is something that I've only seen explored a little bit in other games. Tapping is an obvious one, as well as status effects in pokemon. I'm sure there are tons of other uses for that idea as well that we haven't even begun to think about!

Anyways, thanks again for responding to my idea and bringing up some valid points. It's great to have someone to bounce ideas off of before I spend any time prototyping, which I find very time-consuming and tedious. It's my least favorite part of working on games. Your game sounds really cool too can't wait to try it out!

I know how unlikely it is for a game to be successful, especially a card game and specifically combat card games. Luckily for me this is all about fun and I don't intend to make a single penny from this at all. I just want to make a fun simple game that can be replayed over and over with enough depth to keep it interesting for many years to come.

radioactivemouse
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It's weird...

Wow...I'm impressed you took the time to go through all my points.

You'd be surprised when you find that special something in a game...when you start developing it, you start believing it's going to be something great. Then, you start fighting and defending it. In part, that's just simple marketing. Let's be honest, any card game, to get any kind of recognition, has to be exposed to the masses. You can't just put it out there and expect the masses to get it. You need to put some footwork into it.

I just wanted to create a simple game myself. To be honest, I mainly wanted to make something that was a finished product. In addition, I wanted to create something that would get respect from the game development community.

But my opinion is that we should move away from fantasy games. In my opinion, it's saturated the market. Even a different genre can be its hook. At BGG Con, I saw Tanto Coure's new expansion, Barbarossa...man. While it's not anything new to the deck building genre, it counteracts it by putting in sexy anime characters playing serious world leaders like Hitler. It's freakin' weird, but it caught my eye.

I chose sci-fi because it's the game I wanted to make, so I can't blame you if you decide fantasy anyways.

I've got many ideas on the table to try and explore. I wish you luck in your game and if you need help, I'll give what I can. But I'l tell you right now it's hard to find a simple mechanic thats got depth and strategy that's not like any other card game.

questccg
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Tradewars - Homeworld

radioactivemouse wrote:
I chose sci-fi because it's the game I wanted to make, so I can't blame you if you decide fantasy anyways.

I've got many ideas on the table to try and explore. I wish you luck in your game and if you need help, I'll give what I can. But I'l tell you right now it's hard to find a simple mechanic thats got depth and strategy that's not like any other card game.

"Tradewars - Homeworld" (TWHW) is ALSO Sci-Fi. For me it was how using the Deck-Building Genre in a different way, made for a completely different experience. Now I know some people are like: "That's not how deck-building works? You are supposed to be able to specialize in one aspect or another!"

In my game it's the opposite: you want to generalize your deck by trying to keep it BALANCED. But at the same time, you want HIGH SCORING cards, so you will naturally buy those from the table. And then the strategy deepens when you have to figure out: "Do I use these cards for stronger starships OR do I used them for their HIGH trade value (currency)?"

I think we have what looks to be a pretty good "Card Game". Plus we hit the market with a "Game Set" box set. So each player has his own cards and will use the same deck. But because the piles you buy from are randomized (shuffled) at the beginning of the game - you aren't quite sure how/what cards you will be dealt with.

The last thing which I think is SPECIAL in the DBG genre - is the Tactic cards. These cards allow you to break that balance during a battle - and rightfully so. But you of course need to balance your deck with a blend of all the other cards if you want to be sufficiently successful.

Just a heads up TWHW is also a Sci-Fi Deck-Building game... unlike any other...

Note: Also opponents can watch to see if a player is "holding" several Tactic cards. By using a role like "The Smuggler" or "The Private", you can force a player to discard some of those valuable cards. So there is some form of duelism between players...

Kevinct
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You're absolutely right about

You're absolutely right about recognition, you will need exposure to a sizable audience. I don't believe it's our job as designers of a game to fight for or defend a concept. If the players don't like something about a game they simply won't bother playing it, no amount of fighting on the part of the designer will convince them otherwise. I also agree that once you have a finished game you have to market it if you expect anyone to buy it. People can't buy what they don't know about after all. One thing I know from personal experience is the power of word-of-mouth, I wouldn't have bothered with card games like these at all if I hadn't been told about them by friends.

I understand the motivation to make a great game that is respected by other designers, unfortunately most people aren't designers at all and would happily play a game like monopoly or crazy eights. My approach for game design includes this line of reasoning. If players can't quickly pick it up and have fun then it's pointless, even if it is the greatest design in the world. Execution may be more important than the mechanics involved in the game.

I completely agree with you about the fantasy trope associated with these types of games. A theme by itself is not enough to make for a strong game, it seems lazy on the part of the designers. It's easy to tack on a fantasy theme. Monsters are typical elves and goblins, you power them up with enchantments and items, and since you're both playing wizards or whatever you can throw the odd fireball to take care of a big baddie. None of this is necessary for the game to operate, I think it has to do with the audience you make the game for and how easily you want them to understand the concepts involved. Monsters are the ones who battle for you, swords and equipment make those monsters stronger, and you being a wizard can cast fireballs. As a player we have seen these things countless times so the novelty has worn off.

It may be more difficult to find simple mechanics that add depth and strategy that aren't borrowing directly from other games, but that is absolutely a worthy endeavor. Magic says that each creature in the game is important, no matter how small because you chose when to engage your forces in battle and your enemy decides how to block those forces to prevent his death. Each individual turns combat can play out completely differently due to the spells each player has, the abilities of the monsters, and how you decide to attack and block each other. Yugioh says that power is extremely important, you will only ever include cards in your deck with maximum power in each bracket (no sacrifices used to be 1800 atk for example). You don't get to decide how to block which reduces the overall depth of combat.

There are so many possibilities in this space that haven't been touched upon by other games. We know what happens when you chose how to block for example, that seems to be a net benefit to depth of combat. What happens if all of your creatures have to attack each turn? Or if your monsters can only attack in a range around themselves? What if only some creatures can block attacks? What happens if each monster has no power values assigned to it, and only differences in abilities? What if the monsters are the spells and the items as well, how will these things affect the gameplay? Are any of themes ideas fun or not I don't know but it's worth checking out.

I'd really love to see a deck building game like this with no conventional combat at all, no monsters to fight each other, an objective that doesn't involve killing your opponent. And a theme that has nothing to do with your typical orcs and humans in a medieval age world with some magic.

radioactivemouse
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about testing

Kevinct wrote:

Anyways, thanks again for responding to my idea and bringing up some valid points. It's great to have someone to bounce ideas off of before I spend any time prototyping, which I find very time-consuming and tedious. It's my least favorite part of working on games. Your game sounds really cool too can't wait to try it out!

I consider myself quite lucky. I used my students as testers. Believe me, my game went through many changes and my students were quite brutal. Testing is so essential; you get to the point where you challenge people to break your game because you want your game to be the best it can be.

Kevinct
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I like deck building card

I like deck building card games for similar reasons, the cards are shuffled so that each game with the same deck is different, but the fact that you can change your deck guarantees more replay value. The mechanics of the game require careful consideration otherwise staple cards appear in every deck. Players shouldn't easily discover these staples, it limits their choices when building. Each card in the game needs to do a specific job.

The idea of tactic cards is a great example of the fun of these games. Each card effectively changes the rules of the game in some way, and if they are cleverly designed the can have some pretty fun interactions with each other too. I also like the fact that this is hidden information most times, I don't know for sure if you can reflect my fireball back at me or not, but you always leave just enough resources available each turn to make me think that you can!

radioactivemouse
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One game to consider...

I've played around with the My Little Pony Card Game and, theme aside, brings some interesting things to the table. I myself have just the starter packs and don't intend to get any more, but I only got it for the mechanics.

For one thing, MLP has no killing. Players have an avatar that has a house limit; they can only have X amount of ponies in their house. Any more and the rest "go home" (discarded).

Another thing is that the game focuses on teamwork and points are awarded based on how much participation a player has contributed to the goal.

I'm always looking for interesting game mechanics I can hopefully exploit.

But yeah, there's some cool stuff out there and stuff that has yet to be discovered.

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