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Gladiator Game Brainstorm

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Fhizban
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Joined: 01/11/2009

hey,
i would really like to create another mini game and thought about a typical roman gladiator combat game. after checking out BGG, kickstarter and thegamecrafter - i found a few - but none of them suits my taste. maybe we can turn this into a little brainstorm thread how the perfect gladiator game could look like. its currently just an idea after watching "gladiator" again, but i already thought about some basic. maybe somone wants to join - im open for anything:

1. setting
a typical medieval roman setting. i dont want any fantasy components. in addition: this is not a greek game, its roman gladiator combat. but, there could be gladiators of many nations. in addition, there are no magic weapons or stuff like that, its all realistic, bloody and deadly.

2. the game
i would ilke this to be a 2 to 4 (or even more) player game, still perfectly playable with 2 players. i imagine a game with 80/20 ratio (80% battles, 20% management) where each player controls at least one gladiator or later a group of gladiators. it would be primary based around fighting arena battles, but also increasing the stat-line of your gladiators, curing and equipping them, as well as moving from little village arenas to bigger and bigger ones until you reach the legendary arena of rome. i haven't decided yet if a single game would be just one battle, or a series of battles - but there should be a campaign mode that allows you to develop your gladiators.

3. game type/ components
definitely a card game, with the addition of a board, player aids, dice and a few tokens. card games are ideal to represent graphics and information - they are easy to produce as well. i could imagine players draw from a shared deck, or two - then each player has a player aid with gladiator information. a gameboard could also be used to represent distance of the warriors in the arena.

4. gameboard
well, i am against a real square/hex grid board as this is a card game and not a board game. but locations/distance should still play a role. so, the idea is to just track the relative distance of each gladiator instead of a full X/Y position tracking. under this link you can take a look at a cake-style gameboard i am thinking about:

http://www.pleacher.com/mp/mgifs/gifs7/polar2.jpg

now, imagine each one of the "cake-slices" is the distance tracker of a gladiator. so the image would represent enough space for 12 gladiators. as only distances count, the X/Y position of a gladiator does not matter - he can only move closer to the center or away from the center. all gladiators present on the same circle are considered in close combat range, while a difference circle can only be reached by using polearms, charge attacks, jump attacks, throwing weaons or ranged weapons.

5. weapons & equipment
all weapons should be balanced, only very few weapons should be more powerful than others. its the use of the weapon that matters, a trident is used different than a mace, or a sword - and so on. the same is true for armor, of course heavy armor protects you better -but it also makes you slower. there will be no extensive item library, only the most important weapon types and a few pieces of armor. in the beginning, its possible to start with any weapon (depending on card draw), its just the amount and variety of weapons the players are lacking. gold is used to outfit all of your gladiators with the equipment of your choice, instead of relying on the initial card draw. there could also be items, gimmicks and other extras that can be bought.

6. more
i have not even scratched the surface of complexity. but i would like to keep the game at its bare minimum. its not a expandable game, so everything has to fit into the package. but, there are some interesting additions that are worth to be looked at: emperors will, power of the crowd, gambling between battles, wild animals, traps, maybe a betting system on who wins the upcoming fight.

okay, thats all for now - whoever chewed through this wall of text is invited to contribute thoughts. i promise, i will take them all into consideration!

conanb
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Joined: 03/21/2012
Interesting. You have a lot

Interesting.

You have a lot of stuff going on here.

Here are my ideas just off the top of my head if I was going to create this. This is just brainstorming.

1) Two systems are needed. First a combat system to replicate battle in the arena and a second system to manage time between fights. As such then you need to have "The games" as regular events that happen at certain times.

2) Players then since they are managing gladiators need to instead be owners of a whole stables of gladiators. As such player's should be owner's of competing Ludi.

3) Players must then at the start of a season go through a bidding round to purchase available gladiator slaves to train. Stats of various gladiators need to be able to be balanced in some way. So probably speed/strength/smarts would be good with speed giving something like # of attacks, strength affecting damage, and smarts how many special moves or whatever they can be trained in.

4) So now we need a system between games in which to train gladiators. Players then can focus on making their gladiators stronger, faster, or training them in techniques. Weapons would also be techniques. Player's need an income system so they could use their gladiators to gain income at set intervals prior to the major games.

5) Finally players need a way to score points in the games. Pitting their gladiators against other gladiators for the event purse. Players can place side bets whenever they like. Coin could be the determining factor for victory in this case or you could use a prestige point system. Although that means you probably still need a monetary system along with a victory point system.

6) In the end the game should go for a set amount of time, like X years with X games. At each game the system changes to where player's use their gladiators skills, training, and stats to compete in combat with the victor gaining money and fame. After each game player's may have to heal injured fighters and replace those that are killed.

Anyways, just a top of my head very top down overview of some ideas.

Good Luck!

Fhizban
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good ideas, thanks! the turn

good ideas, thanks!

the turn limit sounds good. like: "150 days of games!" then the richest gladiator stable wins.

i post further thoughts after work, here a a few to begin with:

1. RELATIVE DISTANCE
if we keep the idea of relative distance between gladiators in the arena, we don't even need a board. this would allow us to reduce components to cards, dice and tokens. i think about using a die to represent the distance of the gladiators. just put a die next to each gladiator card, the die face shows his arena position. all gladiators on the same position are able to melee attack. this would tone done position/movement to:

Distance 0 (die shows the same face) = Melee Combat (also martial arts and grappling)
Distance 1 (die difference 1) = Close Combat (Close-Combat-Weapons)
Distance 2 (die difference 2) = Polearm Combat (lances and weapons with reach)
Distance 3 (die difference 3) = Throwing (stones, darts, missile weapons)
Distance 4+ = only Missile weapons can reach thus far

Gladiators can only move in one of two directions: increasing the number on their "distance-die" or decreasing it. a d6 to show distances should be enough.

Example 1:
Titus die shows 1, Cracalla's die shows 3 - the distance is 2 points wich means they are in Polarm Combat Range (only weapons with reach can be used, or throwing weapons or missile weapons)

Example 2:
Both, Geta and Didius dice show 4, the distance is 0 - so they are at Melee Combat range (use martial arts or close-combat-weapons, but no throwing/missile weapons).

Example 3:
Hadrian's die show 6 while Caligula's die shows 2 - the distance is 4. This distance can only be covered by Missile weapons.

2. PAPERWORK
i like to keep paperwork to a minimum, so it would be better to use cards and tokens as often as possible to keep track of gladiator stats. the idea is to have a "gladiator character card" in the middle and put equipment, skills and power-up cards around the character card. we could also use these cards to keep track of body-parts or equipment at the body-parts.

Middle: Character card
Card above: Helmet / Head
Card below: Boots / Legs
Card left: Left Arm / Shield/Net etc.
Card right: Right Arm / Weapon

something like that, more later!

leoknite
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Joined: 03/18/2012
None

Strictly brainstorming

I think gladiator's are a pretty nifty idea.

If you wanted to implement different themes of combat you could have small battle boards, with numbers to symbolize different positions on the field. A 3 x 4 grid with using a D12. They boards don't have to be huge just small center placement board. You could have barricades on certain numbers or lions. So with certain skills you can knock players into traps or things.

1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12

Players would then start at say 12, pick a dice to either move to 8 or 11 or 7. You can gauge distance this way. squares 2 away is for long range and 1 square away is for pole arms and same square is for swords, axes etc. So if 6 has a spike pit you might get maimed by being on that square, so you could push your opponent into it.

Thats all I really have.

Orangebeard
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Joined: 10/13/2011
More Ideas...

Hi Fhizban,

How about the idea of "crowd favorites" or some kind of popularity rating for gladiators?

I think your relative distance approach will probalby work; if you decide to strip it down further, you might be able to do away with any kind of distance and build range bonuses directly into the weapons. For example, hitting someone with a trident does not allow them to counter-attack that turn and so on...

Could each battle be fought under some kind of "theme card"? For example, The Battle of X - setup like A, special rule is B, winner gets C?

Also, check out Spartacus - Blood and Sand for some gritty, bloody, inspiration!

conanb
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Joined: 03/21/2012
Thinking a bit more on

Thinking a bit more on this:

1) Prestige: This is the victory track for the game. Prestige is derived from a player's money, their win record in the games, and how popular their gladiators are. Prestige can be upped with cash at any time by buying lavish gifts for the city and populace. These gifts though tax your liquid cash so use them sparingly or you'll have trouble buying and training gladiators.

2) Wealth: Player's will gain wealth through 'exhibition' matches and events held in the city to parade and show off their gladiators. These are also set events. You could have these occur at set times along an event track but then randomize which particular event occurs when. Have 'exhibitions' bring in more cash than parade's or showcases. Players then have to adjust everytime they play to changes in income stream. Although these variances should not be extreme, they do need to be large enough to affect play.

3) Popularity: Gladiators gain popularity to become crowd favorites. This could be a single stat/track with each gladiator from a scale of 1 to 10 or so. The player with the most popular gladiator at each major game will gain x prestige/second highest y/third z. Also score at the end of the final games x/y/z. Popularity is gained from wins during the game (1 or 2 points), competing against the most popular opponent and living (1 or 2 points) and then finally by flashy moves (bonus point from using technique card, spin attack, dual weapon, thrown sword, etc.), and maybe doing the most damage (1 or 2 points). This way popularity supports all three traits speed/strength/smarts. The flashiest gladiator (++smarts) could be the most popular by using lots of flashy technique cards during fighting. The strongest by doing the most damage. The fastest also by doing the most damage and living through more fights than most.

4) Combat: I thought a bit about your combat. Combat should be quick but strategic. Players should go through move/attack/resolve steps. Now this is a one on one match with the other players wagering so we don't want this to go on too long otherwise the wagers will get bored. So every fight should be quick with either 2 or 3 rounds of combat. Bets can be laid on first blood, winner, flashiest fighter. Bets should pay off less the more than bid on them and more for the long shot. Since this was ancient times the owners can bid too and all bids are against the bank.

Fhizban
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good ideas everyone

good ideas everyone

the main question is now: how detailled do we want the combat to be? should the game be mostly management, where combat is very quick, or a 50/50 solution or should combat be the most important part of the game? we could also go for a super-big approach where both, the management of your gladiator school and the actual combat are fleshed out to the maximum. this would lead to a more complicated and slower game with longer setup and playtime - suited primary for campaign play.

further brainstorming:

1.) Advertising Combat
the prize money players can get by winning a show could depend on the type of the show and the number of visitors. visitors could be represented using tokens. before the battle, players would actively try to attract more visitors if their gladiator stable is about to win. this can be done by mouth-to-mouth-propaganda, flyers, billboards, public events (like a last meal for the gladiators before combat) and so on.

2.) combat types
like stated above by someone else, there could be special circumstances under wich the battle takes place. like training combats, combat to death "sine missione", showcase battles where special guests are present, battles where all gladiators face additional threats like chariots, lions, panthers, archers, pit-traps and so on. there where also handicap matches (like fighting blindfolded) that offer additional variety.

3.) armor
checking out a few historic websites and still thinking about the management/combat ratio, i thought it would be a good idea to recherche what kind of armor gladiators in ancient rome used. is there enough variety to justify more complicated combat? this is what came together:

* Balteus: (sword belt)
* Cetratus - Light Shield
* Clipeus - Large, oval body shield
* Fascia: Protective leg padding
* Galea: Visored helmet
* Galerus: Shoulder guard
* Greave: Leg armor
* Kalkriese: Face armor
* Spangenhelm - Highly Protective German helmet
* Cuirass - Breastplate
* Lorica hamata: Ring-mail armor
* Lorica squamata: Scale, or plate, armour
* Manica (pl.manicae): Protective arm wraps
* Ocrea: Leg guard
* Parmula: Small, light shield
* Parma equestris: Medium-sized, round, cavalry shield
* Scutum: Large Shield
* Thorax Hamata - Chain mail
* Cingulum - a wide leather belt
* Spongia - Small breast plate

thats already 20 pieces of armor, not including boots or standard clothes (a few days ago i thought about limiting armor to 3 types light/medium/heavy, but the more i read about gladiator combat the less i believe i can hold this up).

4.) weapons
again, i try to find out how deep the tactical possibilities for a game are. is there enough freedom to justify a complex combat system or should be limit it drastically and focus on management and the "big picture" instead? well, this is what i got:

* Arcus: Bow and Sagitta an arrow
* Contus: (Pike or lance)
* Acinaces: Single edged cavalry sword
* Fascina: Tridents, harpoons
* Gladius: Sword
* Gladius Graecus: Leaf shaped sword
* Hasta: Spear for thrusting
* Iaculum: Casting net
* Lancea: short javelin, or spear
* Parmula: Small, light shield
* Pilum: Long, heavy throwing spear
* Plumbatae or martiobarbuli (lead-weighted darts)
* Pompeianus: Sword
* Pugnum: Small shield used for thrusting
* Pugio: Dagger
* Sagitta: Arrows
* Semispathae: Half-swords
* Sica: Short, curved sword or scimitar
* Spatha: Long broadsword
* Verutum: Short, light throwing spear

another 20, not including provisoric weapons or war-machines (like chariots) - i also found a variety of other weapons used in gladiator combat not stated in the list above (like scythes and lassos). well thats enough to base a complete combat-game around it.

more later! this seems to be a very rewarding setting to place a game in!

SlyBlu7
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Joined: 03/15/2012
Did some Research for you (long post)

You should definitely check out "Blood Bowl, Team Manager" for ideas on how to manage your Ludi. Their system represents the owner of an American-style Football team from the fantasy game Blood Bowl (Warhammer football). I would suggest another game, but this is the only one I could think of with a team-management aspect.
One of the most interesting things about this game is that it uses a set "team" of just 12 cards, and you manage their skills and injuries. For 'duels' between the teams you turn over a number of Tournament and Highlight cards (highlights representing pivotal points in an individual game), and draw a hand of 6 players. You then play your players (redundant wording, ugh) to either a Tournament or Highlight, using their skills to defeat opponent cards played to the same place.
-- So now that's out of the way, on to brainstorming about gladiators and stuff :) --

1. A day of games had very little gladiator/gladiator combat, and matches rarely ended in death. Lanista (owners of the schools) avoided deathmatches at all costs - there was a great deal of financing sunk into a gladiator, and having him killed would frankly suck for the school. As a form of insurance, the host of the game would "rent" the gladiators from their school, paying up front for them. If the gladiator was killed, the host would have to pay the school a fee, by contract.

2. The best sources of Gladiators was not necessarily slaves. It is estimated that at the height of the gladiatorial games, roughly *half* of the gladiators were actually volunteers, who signed on to a school in a manner similar to indentured servitude, and these were often the most skilled and desirable gladiators. Rarities (black, women, left-handed fighters) were also more highly sought after and worth more.

3. Building from "why the hell would anyone sign up for this?!" Gladiators were slaves, but they were *paid* slaves... kinda. They got to keep their prize money. In fact, Tiberius paid several retired Gladiators an equivalent of $500,000 each to return for a single day of games. Mark Antony would elevate Gladiators to his personal bodyguard, and Nero even gave a Gladiator named Spiculus a residence and pension to equal that of a war-hero.

4. Order of a day of games:
Pompa - the parade.
Venationes - the Beast Hunt
Beastiarii - similar to the Beast Hunt, but Gladiators would fight more dangerous and aggressive beasts.
Ludi Meridiani - executions. Sometimes in the form of reenactments (like the chariot battle in Gladiator). Gladiators often avoided these events, and the crowd treated it as a sort of intermission. Both parties preferred the spectacle of a more "fair" event.
Ordinarii - paired gladiator fights.

5. The fight itself - There were actually referees present in paired fights. They carried staffs called 'rude' in order to caution and separate the fighters (the rude was also a gift given to gladiators freed from their contract). People wanted a showy bout, not a bare-knuckled brawl. Refs could stop a bout entirely, or pause them to give the fighters a rest. A gladiator could also "tap out" by raising a finger (called ad-digitum). At this point, it fell to the host to decide the outcome of the duel, and whether the defeated fighter might be spared.

6. Gladiators only fought on average in 2-3 games each year. Some fought in as many as 150 games during their careers. Winners got a palm branch and prize money from the host, and occasionally prize money from fans. For a slave-fighter, the best gift was the Rudis, symbolic of their freedom. This was awarded by the host, and *not* the gladiator's owner. The famous gladiator Flamma was awarded the rudis 4 times, but chose to remain a gladiator. His gravestone in Sicily includes his record: "Flamma, secutor, lived 30 years, fought 34 times, won 21 times, fought to a draw 9 times, defeated 4 times, a Syrian by nationality. Delicatus made this for his deserving comrade-in-arms."

7. Classes - gladiators were trained in a *legislated* type of class, so that bouts could be paired evenly and in an entertaining manor. This also helped to insure that the proper weapons were available to the schools.

- Hoplomachus: A Greek-style fighter, and the most heavily armed and armored gladiator in the games. His name literally means "armored fighter". He carried a rounded greek shield, heavy padding on his arms and legs, a guard for his sword-arm, and greaves which reached his mid-thigh. He was armed with both a spear and a shortsword, although his small round shield was as much a weapon as a defensive item, used for bashing and swiping at the enemy. Notably, they wore no shoes, and the rumor surrounding them was that they believed this was their equalizer, "perhaps the chafing sand will give me a challenge." Most typically fielded against a Murmillo, although he was occasionally pitted against the Thraex for an interesting contest.

-Thraex: Armed in the manner of a Thracian. They were incredibly well armored, carrying a small, square shield, an enclosed helmet, metal greaves, a protective belt, and an arm guard for his sword-arm. Most interesting was their sword - a very short weapon with a curved tip called a 'sica' (it looks like an Uruk-hai sword from The Lord of the Rings), used for getting under enemy visors, punching through armor on the downstroke, and most commonly, mauling a foe's unprotected back.

- Murmillo: replaced the Gallus-class after Gaul became assimilated into Rome. They were more "medium-armored", often donning a full faced, wide-brimmed helmet, a scutum (legionnaires shield), leather arm/leg wrappings, and the gladius shorsword of a legionnaire. Many murals depict them with fish-ornaments on the tops of their helmets, hence their name, and making them an occasional foe of the Retiarius. They were also symbolic of the "true roman" owing to their legionnaire armament, and were most commonly pitted against the Hoplomachus or Thraex when a clash of cultures was desired. They were a crowd favorite, being uniquely Roman in their origins.
The most famous murmillo in record is Marcus Atillus, who won his first fight against Raecius Felix, an undefeated veteran of 12 fights. Felix survived and was granted his freedom after the match.

- Retiarius: "The Fisherman" fought with a net and a trident, and was lightly armored. His net-bearing arm was often armored from the fingers to the shoulder, and leather garb was made available.

- Secutor: "The Follower/Chaser", who replaced the Samnite class, was trained specifically to fight Retarii, and armed similarly to a Murmillo, with a scutum, a greave on the left leg, armor for his sword-arm, and a gladius. Most notable was his helmet, which had no crest (to keep from getting entangled in the net), and only 2 eye-holes to prevent puncture from the trident. The Secutor had to win his fights quickly, because the helm was so constricting that he might feint from lack of airflow.

I used a book from my own collection to get this info, although you could look here:
http://www.roman-colosseum.info/gladiators/types-of-gladiators.htm
to get a much wider variety of gladiators, as well as some more info.
-----------------

If I were developing a game, I'd split it into the following steps, and repeat them as many times as you want. A single repetition could be a game, but depending on how detailed/quick your combat is, you might be able to manage multiple repetitions in a single "game".

1. Deal out a run of Gladiators. I would print the card dual-sided, with one side representing the gladiator as a volunteer, the other representing him as a slave (with diminished stats and smaller cost). Deal out a row of gladiators and let the players bid on them as you would in a game of "Power Grid" (player picks one, bidding goes until every other player has passed, highest bidder gets the card. If you didn't get the card you picked, you pick again, otherwise the next player in line chooses). Gladiators who are not picked in a round are flipped to the other side and shuffled back into the deck, so you never see the same gladiator twice.

2. Gladiators might be "raw" and classless, or might come as a particular class, your choice. Either way, players can start arming them and giving them skills prior to the fight. It might be good to have two of each "class" card, so that you can use one as a marker, and one to indicate that a gladiator is a particular class. Whether the armaments come from a premade/constructed deck, or are bid upon, is up to you of course.

3. Players shuffle their hand and draw X cards, and play them to either a tournament or a highlight, as in Bloodbowl, and use their skills and combat to fight it out for the earning. Outcomes of the matches might include injuries, the obvious prize money, and increased fame. Cards drawn from a deck might give the players "dirty tricks" or "crowd bonuses" to play, depending on how involved the combat is.

4. Repeat? It might be interesting to let players place their own trained gladiators into the auction draw, if they want to retire them or sell their contracts, or to be able to buy-back skill cards from a retired gladiator (representing him staying on to train newcomers). Perhaps have an upkeep cost associated with gladiators, making it more expensive to keep a well trained, well equipped, veteran team (forcing the player to take bigger risks to "win big" just to make ends meet).

Fhizban
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ah the good old blood bowl!

ah the good old blood bowl! im just checking out "team manager", but copying a existing game is not my target.

im als checking out roman-colosseum - there is lot of info there (most of my weapon/armor suggestions came from that site)

*) Betting
yes, the betting idea is good. i thought about that a while ago: there could be a "market deck" that includes eveything from gladiators, weapons, armor, items, skills and gimmicks. when the market gets refreshed, a player draws - say 12 - cards and places them face up to see for everyone. then the betting starts, something like that.

more later, work is calling!

UncleDragon
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Joined: 01/12/2012
*sigh

It's too bad you are against using a square/hex game board. I thought I may have found a good use for the Harry Potter Quidditch gameboard. It is a 13x17/18 hex oval map that may have been perfect.

Not to say that it still can't be used for something similar, thanks for the idea.

Great thread by the way, and wonderful contributions. This is going to be a fun one to follow.

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