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Goblin Kartz (wip) needs advice

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Zag24
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Joined: 03/02/2014

Hi all,

Here's my latest game, Goblin Kartz. Playtests have gone well, but they point to one fatal flaw: the Attack phase at the end. I, and most people who commented, feel that there does need to be some climactic event once the Kartz are all built and before the points are tallied, but the current approach is not working. Being attacked, especially by more than one person, is too devastating and you have no chance to win.

I'd be very glad for any comments on the game, but I'm specifically looking for ideas to fix the attack phase problem.

Here is a nearly full print 'n' play. All you need to add are money (enough for 20 coins for each player, plus a bit to make change if you get to 20 using ones and fives) and a token for each player, recognizable somehow.

Instructions: http://zag.net/GoblinKartz/instructions.pdf
Cards: http://zag.net/GoblinKartz/Kards.pdf
Player Mats: http://zag.net/GoblinKartz/Mats.pdf
Bidding Mat: http://zag.net/GoblinKartz/bidding.png

Here's the short version, highlighting my problem:

Players are goblin engineers, making go-carts (Kartz) for the big race. They bid on goofy items, which have different point values in the different 'slots' on their Kart (Wheel, Wheel, Wheel, Chassis, Control, Weapon). For example, a Steering Wheel is a very good Control mechanism, a pretty good Wheel, but a lousy Weapon.

Each player has a different power which modifies one of the rules. This has worked out quite well, though they do still need some playtesting to balance a little better.

The parts each have a hidden value, Reliability, which makes parts worth +50%, +0, or -50% of the point values shown on the front of the card. Before the bidding, each player gets to see the Reliability of one card, but he has to guess at the values for the other cards. (My hope, here, was that players could infer some values from the bidding and behavior of the players who know those values. This has born out quite well, and it really is a fun aspect of the game.)

A Construction Phase after each Bidding Phase allows some opportunity to learn the Reliability of your parts, and to make some changes to the Kart.

After 6 rounds of Bidding and Construction, everyone's Kart has all its parts. Then we have an Attack Phase. On the count of 3, everyone points at one other person whom they attack. The Reliability-adjusted value of the weapon of the attacker is deducted from the total points of the attacked (and not added to the attacker's score).

Everyone turns over their parts cards, totals the Reliability-adjusted values according to which slots each part is in, deducts any attacks against him, and a winner is determined by highest total.

JewellGames
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Joined: 06/03/2012
Once I'm off work I'll look

Once I'm off work I'll look it over and see if I have ideas.

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
I'm disappointed

I thought once you built the Kartz, you would actually have some form of race to determine who is the winner. Maybe like a 5-10 minute "mini-game" in which you use the Kartz you built... And of course players could use their attacks to target Kartz "in front of them".

Since this would be a "mini-game", what would be important is the ORDER of the kartz: who in FIRST, all the way to who is LAST.

You weapons should allow you to "attack" the opponent immediately in FRONT of them (So #2 can attack #1, #3 can attack #2 and #4 can attack #3). But you could have other weapons that could maybe attack up to 2 positions (maybe - just an idea).

Your goal is to accomplish something like 3 laps in about 10 minutes... The winner is the one who reaches the finish line FIRST!

Zag24
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Joined: 03/02/2014
Thanks! We talked about a

Thanks!

We talked about a racing mini-game after, but I really like your idea for using the weapons during it. Something else occurred to me while reading your note -- I can put a racetrack on the back of the bidding card and they can use the goblin tokens they already have, so it doesn't mean any more parts.

What do you think of this idea? I make the racetrack a figure 8. In addition to attacking the person immediately ahead of you, you also can attack someone within some number of squares of you because they have half-lapped you. (And, of course, if they have fully lapped you.)

killerkilroy
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Joined: 10/04/2012
What a blast!

Sounds like a lot of fun! Rules are simple but clear, and the character powers are diverse and interesting (though a couple do seem way over powered, particularly the "swap all the things" character.).

I agree that the Attack! is super anti-climactic. Perhaps take a cue from Galaxy Trucker and force the players to race around a track filled with random (or deliberate) obstacles. The first one across the finish line, or last one rolling, wins.

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
No track

Well you "could" use a "Track"... But my idea was something more like a "Virtual" track. Three laps could be three (3) rounds...

And all that you need to keep track is positions (And obviously if your Kart is about to explode or lost a wheel... hehehe)...

It's like the climatic approach: YOU HAVE THREE (3) ROUNDS. Not more, not less...

And it's got to employ some form of LUCK (perhaps dice) when using weapons (I think if it's TOO STRATEGIC - it might be a little boring). So with dice it's all about ODDS and anticipating those odds...

That's why I called it a "mini-game".

I was not presuming you would have a track - either. I just went with what you had: 4 kartz and added three (3) rounds...

AND BTW this idea - IMHO - will add A LOT OF TENSION. Those three (3) last rounds, where we see where everyone position is resolved, IMHO would be a lot of FUN!

Cheers.

questccg
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More examples

Let's say HOW do you determine the START positions "out of the gate"?

Well if you have a Kart "Speed", the player with the HIGHEST "Speed" starts the race in Position #1 = He is the leader.

So accumulating SPEEDY components for your Kartz is important.

Weapons are also important because they allow you to SLOW or even STOP and opponent. Like say one weapon does medium damage, you LOSE 1 Position. But if a player has a MUTHER FOCKER MEGA GUN, he can cause a player to LOSE 2 Positions! etc.

All you need is a catch-up mechanic and a way to regulate "Speed".

But they are Kartz - so ideally no one is going to lap another player... Everyone is in it until the last turn is resolved.

Update: What I am trying to say is the "mini-game" is all about trying to hold on to the #1 position during three (3) rounds of play. Nothing more complicated than that!

questccg
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How do you GAIN positions?

A simple idea is a SPEEDIER kart can pass a SLOWER kart. But of course you can DAMAGE a speedier player's kart such that it's not that fast.

Granted if you have four (4) players and three (3) rounds, that amounts to 12 turns in all.

Maybe your SPEED decides the number of ACTION POINTS (APs) you have. So you can (on your turn) spend your APs on like Gaining position, using a weapon or repairing damage.

Ok so the "repairing damage" isn't very realistic. I added it there because you might get crippling damage from a couple players and you would be out of the race...

Maybe you can find a thematic arrangement. Like instead of you pitting, your crew comes to you on the race track - assuming they are Kartz, the track can be small and make it possible for your mechanics to arrive fast to help repair a damaged kart...

Something like that...

Midnight_Carnival
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so... (?)

so once you have the Kart assembled you then race them on a race track you can build out of cards left over from those you were hording in order to build your kart, you can make your own tracks or collaborate on tracks but the main event is built out of all the cards left in the deck in a special board and it works kind of like dominos. You race to gain experience and upgrade your Kart before the grand prix in which you continue to "race" until only one Kart remains?

Have I got it right or was I smoking crack?

radioactivemouse
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Joined: 07/08/2013
What I've gathered and what I think...

So...this is what I've gathered:

-It's a game called Goblin Karts
-Every player is different, Karts have to be "built"
-Players bid for parts
=Parts have "grades" of quality (reliability)
-After 6 rounds of bidding and construction, there's 1 attack?
-Adjustments are made to parts and reliability
-Winner has the highest value based on parts and reliability

On its base level (my initial impression):

-The title infers a race of some sort.
-Bidding for parts is a cool mechanic
-Reliability (at least I think) seems a bit too much
-Bidding and construction take up most of the game
-Only 1 attack phase?
-What if a player doesn't have all the parts to build a Kart? What if all that's in the bidding is weapons or what if all the weapons are at the bottom of the bidding deck?

My thoughts:

-The game should be a race if you're using the word "Kart"...or at least have a big portion of the game be about the race.
-Questccg has the right idea in putting in a racing "mini-game". I think he's right in saying it should be simplified by only knowing the order of where they are at. There's a game called Formula Motor Racing that does a pretty solid job at this. Since this is not a big popular game, I say steal the idea of using order instead of having a track.
-Take out the reliability mechanic. The appeal of the "parts" should be exciting enough...and by "parts" I say just weapons.

My ideas (would certainly revamp your infrastructure, but these are just my ideas, take them as you will)

-I think the bidding should only be the first part and should only be 1 round.
-Players should only bid for weapons; each Kart should have its own stats (have a bunch of Karts to choose from) so it's not only easier to test, but opens the door for so many Karts you can introduce later on. Maybe some Karts are tougher, but are slow. Some may be fast, but have weak armor.
-The race should be about positioning only. Players' attacks are based on initiative (speed of car), attack value (of the weapon on the car), relative position (if attack is successful, how much can they advance), and a random element (either random card draw result or dice).
-Have 3-5 "laps".
-Some powerful weapons should be "detached" when used and can be "acquired" by the last player to use as a comeback mechanism.
-Every weapon should have a strength and a weakness. Some weapons should work better on several Karts so introduce competition.
-Winner gets the "Trophy", but the loser gets "pity" money so they can have the advantage in the next bidding phase of the next race.
-Bidding + Race (5 "laps") = 1 Cup. First to win 2 Cups would be the winner.

Overall, I do like the bidding aspect of the game, but having reliability is far too much of an x-factor to me. Cut it down to its basic perks...players want the weapons; that's the exciting part of the game. In my opinion, fun races needs to have some way of having the last player affect the first player (a la the Blue Shell). It's a theory my game design professor called the "50 yard dash...with guns". It's not likely we'll see a race where every runner has a gun, but man, will that race be hilarious and fun to watch! I also think you need some measure of control as a designer. By having different Karts with different "set" statistics, it will get players to buy in easier to the race instead of getting them to "build" their Kart.

I know tl;dr. I just can't sleep at the time of this writing and I needed something to put my mind into.

Zag24
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Joined: 03/02/2014
Thanks!

Wow! Thanks so much, everybody, for the comments.

I agree with mouse (and, pretty much, everybody) that the name of the game implies that there will be a race of some sort, and it is really needed. I had resisted this originally because I was worried that the game would get too long. I was targetting 20 minutes, and that's about where it is, now. However, I do think we can go up to about 30 minutes and still be appropriate for the tone of the game.

I'm working on a couple different approaches for the race portion, some that use actual speed and movement around a track and some that do not. I'm going to playtest them and I'll come back with some results.

Thanks again.

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