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Handling large pools of resources

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innuendo
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Joined: 05/25/2010

So I'm in the early stages of brainstorming for a game but am running into a logistical issue.

The game will have some pool of initial resources that is large and dwiddles as the game goes on. This pool will, at least at my initial mock up be around 100 large. Now it makes sense for these to be tokens but that is a LOT of tokens (400-600 for the whole game) so doesn't make sense...

Even using cards is a huge ammount of cards. And the only idea I can think of is using a paper tracker.

Is there any more elegant way to track a large pool of one resource like this?

Thanks in advance

jukius
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Joined: 08/01/2008
A suggestions

Hi,

I have been lurking around here for awhile now and thought I'd finally take part in some thread :)

I'm not sure what you mean by paper tracker, but maybe each player could have a player mat that has a tracker ranging from 0 to 100 (or what ever the range is) and use just one token for each resource and move it on the tracker to the direction necessary when the amount changes. The downsides would be that you would need a player mat and the players should be careful not to move the wrong token.

Another idea could be that the tokens would be similar to play money and have different values on them like a bunch of tokens of "1", tokens of "3" and tokens of "5" etc.

-Jukka

EDIT: I just noticed you were talking about ONE resource only so that might change the suitability of these a bit. Perhaps the tokens could be one for each player color in the first suggestion..

gabrielcohn
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Joined: 11/25/2010
Denominations

Just have resources come in different denominations (1s, 5s, 10s for instance). The game I'm currently designing has been pared down so that people never have more than 20 or so little cubes to deal with, but in its original conception, I got bigger ones to count as 5s...

innuendo
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Joined: 05/25/2010
Even with denominated tokens

Even with denominated tokens each player is still looking at managing 30-40 tokens at the start of the game. now when I think about some classic token heavy games (original version of risk for example) this isn't terrible but I haven't seen many recent games use this many tokens.

Right now i'm looking at testing this way:

5x 1-value tokens
19x 5-value tokens

I could do 1 and 10 value tokens, but I wanted to avoid the busy work of constantly having to 'break a 10" at the bank to pay for small value transactions. Should I be more worried about the busy work from constantly having to break down larger denomination tokens or more worried about the game requiring 200-300 tokens? Because honestly, having this many little pieces just seems, bothersome, and I haven't even mocked up a test copy yet.

Are there any more recent games that have been token heavy like this?

Grall Ritnos
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Joined: 02/07/2011
Powers of five

What if you expanded the distance between denominations? Say, 1-5-25? or even 1-5-50? This would drastically cut down on the number of tokens, but also reduce the frequency of bookkeeping tasks (although it would admittedly be a bit more work when it did happen). I'm assuming from your description that these resources are remaining in a fixed pool, and that you don't need to split them up too often. I personally find the symmetry of 1-5-25 appealing.

Another option in lieu of a paper counter would be a two digit countdown in some fashion, possibly with two d10 or two 10 space tracks on the board. Still not a lovely solution, but perhaps a bit more compact than a full track of 100 spaces.

innuendo
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Joined: 05/25/2010
I might end up using a two

I might end up using a two track system, that actually makes a lot of sense and I hadn't thought of it, thank you.

The pool is goes down about 5-10 a turn depending upon which actions you take.

1-5-25 isn't terrible either, I would probably start with

5x1 + 4x5 + 3x25 = 100 value at 12 tokens. The only issue will be when you need to break a 25 you'll need 5 free 5 tokens, but that should be possible...hmmm

Appreciate the suggestions guys, really helps.

rcjames14
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Joined: 09/17/2010
100 Small Cubes

One of my hands is large enough to hold about 100 small cubes. So... as long as you are only required to redeem a few at a time ( 1 to 5 ), I don't see any reason that players would not be able to pay from their 'horde'. It might actually be fun. I know that a lot of players like to organize their extra tokens into rows and columns, 3D shapes and other aesthetic and mnemonic orientations during games of Catan. And, poker players don't seem to mind the task of organizing their chips as they want to.

Having a horde of cubes also allows you to monitor better how fast you are spending them. People notice dwindling piles a little better than dwindling denominations. So... there could be a benefit to using cubes over say play money. However, the biggest problem with a horde of cubes is counting out the right amount at setup.

But, it really all depends upon what you need to use this counting system for.

innuendo
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Joined: 05/25/2010
Part of the issue will be

Part of the issue will be viability. The cost of producing a game with 500 pieces is higher than a game with 200 pieces. And while I love the $75 games as much as the next person, I don't want to have to pay that much to prototype or produce the game, assuming it ever gets that far.

So part of this isn't just logistics, part of it is a production question.

I agree though, making a pyramid of tokens is high on my "I want to do that" list.

SiddGames
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Joined: 08/02/2008
Simplify?

Without knowing anything about your game, my suggestion is to see if you really need that large a pool? 100 tokens provides a lot of granularity -- well, 100 granules to be exact, heh. If these are spent 5-10 per turn, does it affect the game too much if you divided all costs by 5 and round fractions whichever way feels best? So players just start with 20 tokens and are spending 1 or 2 per turn, etc. Does the benefit of being able to finely tune costs against a scale of 100 points outweigh the fiddliness and component costs versus a scale of just 20 points?

innuendo
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Joined: 05/25/2010
As appealing as that solution

As appealing as that solution is I don't think it works for this game. This reource ends up being part of the victory condition when the game ends, so the impact of spending even one or two of this resource (especially if you are spending 1 or 2 more a turn compared to a more frugal opponent), will determine, in, part, your standing at the end of the game.

I'm almost to a point where I'll write a blog about the game and hopefully explain some detail, I just want to have the groundwork laid down for the mechanics first.

Thanks for the ideas guys

rcjames14
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Joined: 09/17/2010
Experience

innuendo wrote:
So part of this isn't just logistics, part of it is a production question.

As long as you are using off-the-shelf game components (cubes, d6s, meeples, gameboards, cards, flat tokens) don't worry about the production cost. They will be negligible in the end even in high quantities due to economies of scale. Whenever you have to create a custom piece (sculptures, contraption or holographic print), then a publisher might balk upon reading your design. But, you should not prematurely limit yourself based simply on quantity. That can usually be accommodated by a higher price.

On a related note: I have been paying more attention recently to the tactile experience of games. People like to handle things when they play and move things around. But there is also a limit to that pleasure: when it is tedious, monotonous, busywork or the variety of pieces results in combinatorial explosion. So, I would be concerned more by the experience of tracking health/points/resources than by its production or prototyping feasibility.

innuendo
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Joined: 05/25/2010
I agree rcj, this game can't

I agree rcj, this game can't be tedious to play, which is why I was concerned about denominated tokens to begin with.

You wouldn't happen to be available to skype later would you?

let-off studios
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play mats

Someone else already mentioned the tokens having different denominations...but what about regions of a play mat?

I remember in Agricola: there are little tiles with a " x5 " on them to indicate a multiple of 5 for any resource placed upon them. Although that seemed a little fiddly to me, perhaps having a playing mat or card for each player might solve this issue. Simply shift the tokens around to the different regions so that the indicated multiple serves to help the player count their tokens.

Five tokens on the " x10 " region means 50 tokens, 3 tokens on the " x5 " region counts up to 15 of that resource; etc. You could even have tokens of different types on each of those regions, and a player could still identify the total of all resources. Players could still have that "tactile" feeling mentioned eariler, and they can arrange their tokens as they see fit in the corresponding regions.

Makes me think of Roman numerals for some reason... Like you could plaster a big X in one region of the play mat, and that indicates 10, the V indicates 5, and so on. Might not fit in with the theme of your game, however.

GitfaceryGames
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Joined: 02/10/2011
Alright, here's an idea. Have

Alright, here's an idea. Have you ever used those turn dials that Wizards has produced for health in Magic? I would suggest that you produce two dials on one chunk of cardboard, one which spins the ones and one which spins the tens. This allows your player to quickly keep track of up to 99 of a resource. It'd be a little expensive to produce, of course.

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