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How many choices should the player have?

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ThinkBuildPlay
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Joined: 01/30/2012

My question is pretty simple: How many choices should a player? The rest of the post will be background to the question, and quite slow about getting to the main point.

I’ve been messing around with a 2-player competitive game focusing on tactical gladiator-themed combat. Probably a tired genre, but I’m having fun thinking about it, and that is the true reason to create games.

Each player is represented by a 6x6 of a gladiator. His head, torso, left arm, right arm, and legs all occupy different areas of the grid, along with about 16 empty spaces. Players share a set of “location” dice (D6) that determine where their blows land on their opponent (a la Flash Point: Fire Rescue). Statistically, 16/36 spaces are misses, 2/36 are head blows, 6/36 are torso, 6/36 are one arm or the other, and 6/36 are legs.

Players’ location is tracked relatively in one-dimension, Range. Range of 0 implies the players are grappling, 1 is normal hand-to-hand distance, 2 is just out of sword reach, 3 is around 10 feet, and 4 is anything greater than 20 feet. Players start at a Range of 4 to each other.

Each player also has a set of 4 “Strength” dice, each of which is a unique D6. They represent a type of blow. For example, the “focused” die has generally higher rolls (2,2,2,3,3,4), while the “weak” die has generally lower rolls (1,1,1,2,2,3). The “wild” die is on both ends (1,1,1,1,4,4), and the “normal” die is in the middle (1,1,2,2,3,3). When attacking, a player may roll one of the 4 strength dice to determine how hard their blow lands. Location and strength dice are rolled simultaneously. A player may only roll a particular strength die one time; to bring any and all strength dice back into play, that player must rest for a turn.

Players start out with a random weapon and piece of armor (or perhaps they will select certain famous warriors, each of which has a particular combination). Armors come in 4 flavors: no armor, cloth, leather, or bronze. Armor can cover up 5 areas: head, torso, legs, arms, and a shield. The first four cover up their specific areas, while the shield is a ‘special’ form of armor that can be used in other ways, in addition to protecting one’s arm.

The two players simultaneously hack away at each other (or perform other actions) until one reaches 10 damage points. Damage points are accumulated by taking the difference from the strength of a landed blow and the armor at the location of the blow. Armor simply serves to decrease the damage received at an area. Regions like head and arms start to incur penalties when damaged too much.

Finally, each player starts out with an identical set of cards, each of which displays a certain action. They each secretly select a card and then simultaneously reveal it. Order of resolution goes : Utility, Moves, and then Attacks.

Here are a few ideas:
---Attack-type Cards---
-Thrust (roll location and strength dice; add +1 to strength)
-Slash (roll location and strength dice; blow affects hit location and adjacent location to the left.
-Throw (roll location and strength dice; you must have a Range >2 to play; you must have wield a Throwable weapon)
-
---Move-type Cards---
-Charge (roll no dice; decrease range by 1; if Range results in 0, roll a strength die; if strength die is 4, opponent’s attack is canceled and he may not play any Attack-type cards next turn; if strength die is 3 or 2, opponent’s attack is canceled; if strength die is 1, no effect.
-Retreat (roll no dice; increase range by 1; return all played strength dice into play)
-Dodge (roll no dice; you may force your opponent to reroll either Location die one time; the second result must be kept)

---Utility-type Cards---
-Trip (roll no dice; if an opponent plays a Move-type Card, his movement is canceled and he may not play a Move-type Card next turn)
-Blind (roll no dice; Range must be 1; Opponent must roll a wild strength die if his action requires a strength die, even if his wild strength die has already been played)
Any many more…

So here is the meat of my post: I could come up with a bunch more actions, but I can tell that I may be getting into a problem area if I’m forcing the player to choose among 20 different possible options. The goal ultimately is to have player mostly trying to inflict the most damage to each other, but still have enough leeway/options to try other tactics as well. Given what you have read so far, how many different actions cards/options do you really think I need to keep the game simple yet deep enough to retain interest over several playings? At one level, the decision is as simple as “do I attack this round or not”, while at the other level, it becomes “which of these 20 moves should I try to play”.

Any thoughts about my question? Also, what do you think about the game itself?

MarkKreitler
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Joined: 11/12/2008
Rules vs Mechanics

> Also, what do you think about the game itself?

I'm not a connoisseur of gladiator games, so my opinion doesn't hold much water, but I'd say the rules seem well thought out, but I wonder about the core mechanics.

Without the cards, the core mechanic seems to be "guess which die my opponent will roll" -- only that doesn't really matter. If you calculate damage by the difference in rolls, and if damaged limbs accrue penalties, then the best strategy is always "pick the remaining die with the highest average roll" because that simultaneously gives me the highest chance to hurt my opponent and the possibility for the best defense. In this case, the game is mostly about luck. That can be a lot of fun, but if you're asking about player choice, you probably want more strategy. (caveat: you have elements of weapon length and range in there that I didn't fully grasp, and these may supply dimensions to the gameplay I don't appreciate)

Introducing the cards changes that up, because things like this:

> Trip (roll no dice; if an opponent plays a Move-type Card, his movement is canceled and he may not play a Move-type Card next turn)

allow me to affect my opponent based on his action. This makes guessing his choice worth a lot. The trick here is finding the sweet spot between few enough choices that I have a reasonable chance to guess correctly, and enough choices to make the game fun. Which brings is to:

> Any thoughts about my question?

Yes. If your primary mechanic is "guess what the other guy is doing," there are 2 proven values for the number of choices: 3 (rock-paper-scissors) and 5 (M:tG).

In this case, rather than having cards that reference other specific cards (like "Trip beats other movement cards"), you would break up your cards into 3 or 5 class, then define rules for which class beats which. For example:

Movement cards beat Defense cards (only the Movement card's effect gets applied)
Defense cards beat Offense cards (only the Defensive card's affect gets applied)
Offense cards beat Movement cards (only the Offense card's affect gets applied)
If the cards have the same class, both cards take effect (or neither, depending on how you want the game to feel)

To invest more meaning in each class, you could tie the dice to the cards. For example:

An Offense card allows players to roll the focused die
Movement allows players to roll the "weak" die
Defense allows players to roll the "normal" die
Players can always opt to roll the "wild" die

Now I have another meaningful choice: good damage, or cool card?

Once you break cards into 3 or 5 classes, the number of cards you give players becomes less important. You can change the number to affect the length of the game, but it doesn't influence the effectiveness of the core mechanic as long as they can hold enough cards to potentially have 1 of each class in their hand.

I made a game with a similar "guess what your opponent is doing" mechanic, and after a few playtests, I found the game naturally converging on the "classes of cards" design. When you have a bunch of cards, some of which specifically affect other cards, you find the game is a lot more fun when there's a good chance you'll use cards that interact. It's also fun to guess what your opponent is doing and trump him outright. If our cards always work, players feel less like their choices matter.

So, I'm not suggesting you actually use the above ideas -- they may be utterly wrong for your game -- but consider the general ideas they demonstrate. Ask yourself what your core mechanics are, how those involve player choice, and -- most importantly -- how to make those choices meaningful in terms of affecting the outcome of the game.

Overall, I like your design. You have a lot of good elements in there. Once you bind them together with a strong central combat mechanic, you'll have a winner.

KAndrw
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Joined: 08/20/2008
I pretty much agree with

I pretty much agree with everything Mark said.

The only thing I'd add is that as a player I would like to aim my blows somewhat. Have you considered simplifying the body maps at all? Perhaps something along the lines of this:

Head OO
Torso OOOO
Left Arm ooo
Right Arm ooo
Legs oooo

Uppercase O represents critical hit points - two damage to the head or four damage to the body spells death.
Lowercase o represents non-critical hit points - three damage to an arm disables it, along with any weapon or shield held. Four damage to the legs prevents movement and allows an attacker to reroll target die once per turn.

Target die - five different custom die - one for each target above.

Head die - Headx2, Missx4
Torso die - Torsox3, Left Armx1, Right Armx1, Legsx1
[L/R] Arm die - Armx3, Torsox1, Missx2
Legs die - Legs x3, Torsox1, Missx2

Arms and legs dice could be generalised to a single limb die.

Damage dice are a neat idea, could possibly get away with just two - light and heavy:

Light attack - 1 damage x4, 2 damage x1, miss x1
Heavy Attack - 2 damagex3, miss x3

Armour would soak damage, weapons would allow rerolls of specific dice - for instance the broadsword would allow a single reroll of the Heavy die, thus making it a better choice to only use heavy attacks.

Your project sounds like it has fun potential!

MarkKreitler
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Joined: 11/12/2008
Nice

KAndrw wrote:
The only thing I'd add is that as a player I would like to aim my blows somewhat.

Damage dice are a neat idea, could possibly get away with just two - light and heavy:

Light attack - 1 damage x4, 2 damage x1, miss x1
Heavy Attack - 2 damagex3, miss x3

Armour would soak damage, weapons would allow rerolls of specific dice - for instance the broadsword would allow a single reroll of the Heavy die, thus making it a better choice to only use heavy attacks.

Pretty cool damage and critical system, KAndrw...

KAndrw
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Joined: 08/20/2008
What can I say - I love

What can I say - I love custom dice!

We gave my nephew a Cars board game for Christmas, with movement and danger dice, and a speedometer per player that told them how many of each to roll. Making and balancing the dice was one of the most fun bits, and the kids has never seen custom dice before so Christmas day was a blast!

MarkKreitler
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Joined: 11/12/2008
Grinch-proof

KAndrw wrote:
What can I say - I love custom dice!

We gave my nephew a Cars board game for Christmas, with movement and danger dice, and a speedometer per player that told them how many of each to roll. Making and balancing the dice was one of the most fun bits, and the kids has never seen custom dice before so Christmas day was a blast!

Sounds like a lot of fun -- especially as I'm a fan of custom dice myself. :)

And nothing beats making games for the kids...

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