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I'm stuck. Need help with end-game.

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acdcatino
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I've been working on a two-player game for a while now, and I've got nearly all the rough prototyping done for playtesting to begin, but I've reached a point where I'm stuck with no idea how to go about creating an end-game. Here's the basic premise of the game...

1. Players pass-and-draft cards with variable values in different categories which they place face-down on their player boards (representing ghostly stall owners at a festival) in order to manipulate the values on the cards they chose.

2. After players reveal their board setup (5 cards each), they receive tokens on their stalls equal to the adjusted values of the cards there. (If a player placed a +1X, +1Y card on a stall with a modifier of +2, they would receive 3X and 3Y tokens to place on that stall.)

3. Another deck of cards (of which not all are used each game) is then gone through, one at a time, containing the patrons of the festival. Each of these cards is looking for a certain variable (e.g. the most X, the least Y, etc.), and the festival that best meets their requirements claims that card and any rewards it provides (i.e. money and victory points).

And now we come to the hang-up. Where do I take it from here? I don't feel that the game has much in the way of decision-making by ending it there (apart from the drafting of cards in the beginning to mitigate the randomness of the patron deck). The players have already secured their VP and currency, but what do they spend the currency ON?
My original idea was that another deck of patrons was gone through, only this time they all had negative effects, and players used their stockpiles of currency to bid on keeping them out of their side of the festival, else they may lose victory points. Due to the theme of the game- the "victory points" being literally the "Belief" that the patrons had in their ghostly festival workers- having cards that stole or chased away patrons from your opponent's stalls didn't make much sense. If a spooky ghost scared a patron away, wouldn't they be MORE LIKELY to believe? And thus be worth MORE victory points in this case? You can see why I'm stuck!

Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated. If there is any other information I can provide, please don't hesitate to ask.

Beggarking
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Not sure I fully understand

Not sure I fully understand the game but here are a couple suggestions:

1. Currency can be used on "marketing" - to draw in the next set of patrons, and stack the patron deck for next round.
2. Currency is used in a second round draft (maybe with higher powered cards) to add to the player's market stall.
3. Play for a determinate number of rounds (like 3) - most VP wins
4. Currency can be used to upgrade current stalls (more +2s or +3s or whatnot)

Any of this helpful at all?

RyanRay
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Joined: 03/27/2014
My initial thought is that

My initial thought is that the game appears to be unintentionally program-heavy. If I understand the rules, after you place your 5 cards there are no more decisions to make in the game, are there (which you also mentioned)?

I'd suggest having a way to cycle through different stall owners or having a deck of cards that allows you some flexibility in where the festival-goers visit.

I'd abandon the whole "belief" system. Points are points, and that's ok. Once you get the mechanics down solidly you may be able to re-skin the points into something different, but don't get hung up on them this early!!

Considering the whole midway/carnival game theme, I think it'd be pretty cool to have the customers actually "play" the games you present. These games could be based purely on dice rolls combined with modifiers on the card. If they win a game at your stall then you LOSE points/money (since they gained it from you), but if the lose your game then you actually GAIN points/money.

Example:
Your Ring Toss booth has a dexterity rating of 4, luck rating of 2, and cost rating of 1. This combination of ratings lures over Jack to play the game.

Jack is a young kid and has a dexterity rating of -1 and a determination rating of 5.

He must first roll a d6 (though you're obviously rolling for him) to match his dexterity rating to that of your game. He has a -1 of dexterity so he must roll at least a 5 to win your game.

Let's assume he DOES win by rolling a 6. He must now beat the luck rating of the game by rolling at least a 2. He rolls a d6 again and gets a 3, thus winning your game. You must now pay him X money/points and he leaves your booth.

Let's assume he DOES NOT win the game by rolling a 1. He instantly loses, pays you X money/points, but then rolls a d6 again to see if he is still determined enough to try and win this game by paying and playing again. He rolls a 2 (which is lower than his determination rating of 6) so he gives up on the game and leaves the booth. Had he rolled a 6, he would play the game again. This repeats until he wins, leaves, or runs out of money.

Perhaps you'd be able to adjust the difficulty levels of your booths? Some booths would just be simple attractions like a photo booth, tunnel of love, etc. too, not requiring dice checks each time.

Good theme, acdcatino, keep up the work on it!
-RyanRay

let-off studios
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Reverse It?

Why not try playing it in reverse? As in, each player starts with several X and Y tokens as you describe, there's a set of patrons or whatever that are drawn that remove the tokens - and allows for players to bid to keep these folks away from their stalls. Once that phase is over, then the positive patrons come through, attracted to the stalls based on the configuration of tokens they desire.

Kind of like the "calm before the storm" and then "aftermath" phases. Conceptually, it makes sense to me to simply reverse the phases of play as you described it above.

See if going in reverse both works and makes sense.

acdcatino
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Thanks so much for your

Thanks so much for your responses, guys! Here's my feedback on your ideas...

@Beggarking
Sorry if I didn't explain enough. I was trying to hit all the key points without going into every little detail. I like your ideas quite a bit, though! I'll definitely be working some of them into the design~

I hadn't even considered going into a second or third round of play, simply because I've heard so many times that games tend to "overstay their welcome" if a simple game (like mine) goes on too long for what it is.
After running a quick play-through of the draft and patron reveal phases, the running time was just shy of 20 minutes. Adding in an additional phase, then tripling the length, that would put the game at a rough estimate of 90 minutes playtime. Is this too long? A decent length? Remember, this is strictly a two-player game, and I'd hate for it to drag.

@RyanRay
You're correct in your understanding. After the initial 5-card draft, there WERE no further decisions to be made. However, using some of Beggarking's ideas, I'll be fixing that problem soon.
As for abandoning the "Belief" system and reworking the game into a midway/carnival theme, that's just not for me. I'm actually collaborating with a prominent researcher in the field of Japanese folklore to keep the game as authentic in its design as I can. I appreciate the excellent ideas, though! They just don't work with what my game is intended to be. Thanks for the awesome feedback and support!

@let-off studios
I hadn't considered going in reverse, but let me shed a bit more light onto the game, thematically-speaking. Beggarking, this might be useful to help you understand a bit more as well.

In Feudal Japan, the largest yearly festival is underway and you are drafting ghostly stall owners in order to sway the local villagers to visit your stalls over your rival's. In this way, you'll acquire the "Belief" of these people, which the the Otherworld needs to survive, as well as make a bit of shiny profit, which is something that certain Otherworldly denizens prize. As night falls, however, the roving gang of ne'er-do-well spirits come down from the mountain and surrounding forest to wreak havoc on the festival in various ways (all negative). You can bribe SOME of these to leave you alone and bother your rival, but others are attracted to certain stalls similar to the villagers. Playing this in reverse wouldn't make as much sense, thematically, and I'd really like to work within the confines of my theme. Does that make a bit more sense?

Again, thanks so much, all three of you, for all of your help and advice! Keep it coming! I'll be sure to keep this thread updated with any new ideas or progress I make with the design~

RyanRay
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I may have to use that whole

I may have to use that whole midway game theme for myself then...

Best wishes on the design! You seem to have a good goal in front of yourself :)

acdcatino
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I've been dabbling with the

I've been dabbling with the idea of mixing the bad spirits in with the patrons and reducing the game to two rounds instead of one. I think it works well! There's no need to rearrange the stalls, as the tokens on them are static and simply add up to a total, not a stall-by-stall check. I've got a solution for the Coin issue as well that I feel offers some fun, quick decision-making.

After the first run-through of patrons to the festival, the players are allowed to use their coins to gamble in an offshoot of the traditional Japanese dice game "chinchirorin". They're allowed three chances each to make a wager as to what outcome three dice rolled in a cup will be. This gives them something to spend their coins on, and winning wagers will reward a player with tokens of their choice to increase the values on their stalls.
Belief can be spent to add very small increases to a player's stalls, but also to obtain "candles", which would act as a disposable shield to the negative effects of the evil spirits making their way through the festival next round.

Thoughts anyone?

cmain
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maybe once you get to the

maybe once you get to the patrons you can have good customers and bad ones. You could choose to bring them to your booth or send them to your competition as a sabotage. might be fun to steal or lure them to your booth somehow and hot potato bad patrons especially if they keep building up.

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