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In *need* of community HELP!

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questccg
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Hello All,

I am working on a game with a board. My first such game - because usually I prefer to design "card games".

I'm in *desperate* need of some fresh/inventive/new ideas.

So some aspects of the project are still to remain confidential - BUT I can disclose the mechanics that are *in question* (so to speak):

The game is a two (2) player dual over a board.

Now the part needing NEW ideas:

  • We want to use cards with Mana. So the COST of spellcasting has a Mana cost. This is REQUIRED and non-negotiable aspect of the game.
  • I don't want the cards to look even remotely like "Magic", "Duel Masters", "Pokemon", "Yu-Gi-Oh!", etc.
  • I wanted something like "Combinatorics". Let me explain...

The kind of IDEAS I need are about "How to implement" a card system for spells using SEVERAL cards...

As if it would be possible to have both some kind of "Language" and a way to DEFINE spells. This would be very different than the games mentioned where ONE (1) card defines what you can do.

I am aware that "Serpent's Tongue" (http://www.becomemagi.com) has it's own language - BUT still you have a CARD for invocation...

I want something MORE *flexible* (which is the best way I can put!)

I am re-examining the WHOLE game's mechanics simply because this aspect of the game remains "broken" (in my mind).

Anyone with some ideas - they want to share? Maybe other games that have similar mechanics or your own creations/mechanics???

questccg
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About the invocation

I just wanted to add that from a GAME PERSPECTIVE, both players can simultaneously work on OFFENSIVE AND DEFENSIVE spells at the same time. This is because you want to protect yourself as well as engage your opponent (to win the dual)...

What I hope to achieve is a SPEED mechanic which means that if you wait TOO LONG to cast your offensive spell, your opponent may already have a MORE POWERFUL defensive spell to counter you.

So the SPEED mechanic would be sort of "Press-Your-Luck"...

let-off studios
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Epic Spell Wars

What you described reminded me of my too-brief encounters with Epic Spell Wars of the Battle Wizards: Duel At Mount Skullzfyre. It's a silly game with a fantastic artist and sense of humor, that allows players to combine spell component cards in various ways to have certain effects on one or more of their opponents during the game.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/112686/epic-spell-wars-battle-wizards...

From what you describe, you could easily allow for a multi-part spell, similar to Epic Spell Wars, with each card being part of an incantation the player recites or whatever to cast the spell. Depending on the components they call out, the spell is of course different.

If you want, you can put a tremendous amount of depth into a system like this. For example, each player could have a custom-selected spellbook they determine before their duel, and then build their deck based on that. If they know what spells their opponent tends to use, they'll build their deck based on offense, but also defense against that opponent's spells.

questccg
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Interesting mechanics

let-off studios wrote:
If you want, you can put a tremendous amount of depth into a system like this. For example, each player could have a custom-selected spellbook they determine before their duel, and then build their deck based on that.

Well the problem with a spellbook - is that it reminds me of "Serpent's Tongue". They have Tarot sized cards with real awesome artwork on them. And your spellbook is like a small-sized binder, which allows you to ADD spells and cards to your spellbook.

let-off studios wrote:
If you want, you can put a tremendous amount of depth into a system like this.

Yeah by looking at "Epic Spell Wars of the Battle Wizards: Duel At Mount Skullzfyre." it allows for three (3) component spells.

My initial idea was to have a "play area" of SIX (6) cards. In the Master Edition, this would be EIGHT (8) cards. Anyways you can always compute the probabilities and more cards means more variety, tougher spells...

And obviously it would be WORTHWHILE to familiarize yourself with the cards in the deck because you can EXPAND your knowledge of what is IN the game (Permissible using a deck of like 80 cards). Studying and learning the types of spells would make you a better player at the game.

I really LIKE this because my game is a *serious* game. And having to STUDY the cards and try to learn more about the game - is EXACTLY what I want...

BUT I don't want to go the route of CCG/TCG/LCG/etc. I want a COMMON deck that gets shared with players. People who buy the First Edition get all the same cards. Then it's a matter of *training* and learning the types of spells you can cast!

Alright - that's pretty cool! Thanks...

Soulfinger
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Sounds like you basically

Sounds like you basically want each player to construct an electronics schematic. Take a look at the record sheets for FASA's old Renegade Legion: Interceptor game and note the way the flow chart works for damage. Think of that in terms of cards. An offensive spell has to travel through layers of defense to have an effect, getting stripped down along the way but also eliminating defensive measures. Conversely, you run your own offensive spells through the same matrix of cards to buff them before targeting the opposing player.

LordBrand
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Questions about system

So I may not understand everything you are looking for, but let me ask a few questions for a clarity:

1) When you say you want to use Mana, are you referring to the concept that players will have mana tokens that they collect in the game that gets spent, or something more similar to Magic where "mana" is typed and reusable each turn?

2) Are you planning on having the combinations be set aside in the rule book somewhere, or could your combinations and components be in your shared decks. IE: Players draw components that go into their hand, and they can also draw spells, which will require a combination of components to cast.

You might even do something where spells are learned and placed on the board, and maybe mana is used to cast the spells, but the combinations are used to learn them.

Example: Fireball is a spell that I can use on my opponent. To "Learn" fireball and put it in play, I need 3 Sulfur, and a Sheep's Liver. Once I've collected those things, I place fireball on the table to indicate it is now "learned", and discard the components. Going forward, maybe it costs mana to cast it, or maybe it costs components.

Am I thinking in the right ballpark, or am I way off base with what you are looking for?

questccg
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Q&A

LordBrand wrote:
1) When you say you want to use Mana, are you referring to the concept that players will have mana tokens that they collect in the game that gets spent, or something more similar to Magic where "mana" is tapped and reusable each turn?

Yes there are the same five (5) colors of Mana as Magic. Mana is used to cast spells (offensive or defensive). Basically the Mana is collected using an area control mechanic on the board. This is something I want to preserve and keep intact (as a mechanic).

LordBrand wrote:
2) Are you planning on having the combinations be set aside in the rule book somewhere, or could your combinations and components be in your shared decks. IE: Players draw components that go into their hand, and they can also draw spells, which will require a combination of components to cast.

Well that's a point to consider. See I did not want something like "Serpent's Tongue" where they have a spellbook filled with Tarot cards... I wanted players to draw spell "components" such that they can play cards on the table "face-down" (hidden from the opponent). But I don't want ACTUAL spell cards. Instead I would prefer to have components that are combined to produce spells.

LordBrand wrote:
You might even do something where spells are learned and placed on the board, and maybe mana is used to cast the spells, but the combinations are used to learn them.

Something like this (perhaps simpler). I want to be able to use a "put into play" Mana cost between one (1) and five (5) Mana. When the spell is CAST and revealed players check to see if they have enough Mana to cast the spell. This again *leans* on the Area Control mechanic. You will obviously be using a certain amount of *bluffing* also...

LordBrand wrote:
Example: Fireball is a spell that I can use on my opponent. To "Learn" fireball and put it in play, I need 3 Sulfur, and a Sheep's Liver. Once I've collected those things, I place fireball on the table to indicate it is now "learned", and discard the components. Going forward, maybe it costs mana to cast it, or maybe it costs components.

I think it would be best NOT to have any SPELL cards or Spellbook. ONLY components to spells. This way you mix and match things as you like. I think this way there is a TON more possibilities...

Example: The TOP of a component card could be "Greater" and on the BOTTOM could be "Lesser" (the opposite). These are just some rudimentary ideas... And I sort of like the idea of having spell categories: illusionist, conjurer, elementalist, etc.

LordBrand wrote:
Am I thinking in the right ballpark, or am I way off base with what you are looking for?

Yes I think some of your points are spot on.

questccg
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Too complicated...

Soulfinger wrote:
Take a look at the record sheets for FASA's old Renegade Legion: Interceptor game...

Whoa that is just too complicated! Interesting I agree... But then everything is already spelled out for you (pun intended) ;)

I want a deck of like 80 cards shared among two (2) players. I also want to save money by not having ARTWORK, maybe just RUNES, symbols, etc.

Update: I was thinking of use Natural Languages (Computer talk) and create a Grammar for the game. But even this is too complicated I believe.

Soulfinger
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questccg wrote:Whoa that is

questccg wrote:
Whoa that is just too complicated! Interesting I agree... But then everything is already spelled out for you (pun intended) ;) I want a deck of like 80 cards shared among two (2) players. I also want to save money by not having ARTWORK, maybe just RUNES, symbols, etc.

Not really. The record sheet looks complicated, but in terms of cards, all you'd be doing is arranging them as a sort of flowchart. It's a good way to go if the cards only feature symbols or runes, because a player could trace their way along the runes for an effect.

questccg
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Soulfinger wrote:...The

Soulfinger wrote:
...The record sheet looks complicated, but in terms of cards, all you'd be doing is arranging them as a sort of flowchart...

Flowchart hmm... Would you have like a "Triangle" (conditional statement) that gives you the option to play more than one path? In that case you would need to match "line types"??? Something like that?

Soulfinger
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questccg wrote:Flowchart

questccg wrote:
Flowchart hmm... Would you have like a "Triangle" (conditional statement) that gives you the option to play more than one path? In that case you would need to match "line types"??? Something like that?

Could be as simple as a 3 card by 6 card grid with pips on the card sides to indicate valid paths.

EthosGames
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Requirements Recap and Componant Combinatorics Cards

In reading over this thread one thought came to mind that may satisfy some of the requirements Quest has put out there.

But first, just so I can be sure I have understood correctly, I have recapped what I know about your requirements:

1 More flexible “language” than one card defining what you can do

2 Using combinatorics

3 Can draw components and play face down hidden from other player

4 These components are combined to produce spells

5 Just runes and symbols

6 Having spell categories ie: illusionist, conjurer, elementals etc

7 Serious game

8 Want players to have to study the cards and try to learn more about how best to use them.

9 Play area of six cards

10 Speed Mechanic – sort of Push Your Luck feel, if you wait too long to cast offensive your opponent may already have a more powerful defensive spell to counter.

11 Mana cost between 1 and 5

12 Mana types are based on the five colors like Magic

13 80 Cards

OK, My 2 cents:

What if the spell component cards had symbols on each side that corresponded to different magic effects. These symbols would be half a whole symbol so that if you place two cards side by side the correct corresponding half symbols would complete each other thereby unlocking that symbol's effect. Each card would correspond to a specific mana type (signifying its mana cost).

For example: If you play an "Ice Fairy Wings" (Blue Mana) and "Sulfur" (Red Mana) component cards together to complete a shield rune you have use one blue mana and one red mana to boost your shield.

This gets interesting because you could arrange multiple cards together in creative ways to unlock simultaneous effects. I am thinking stuff like a Flame-Shield combo that could either be used offensively (reduce opponent's shield value and inflict fire damage) or defensively (boost shield with an extra boon against fire attacks)

There could also be a sort of SUPER effect that would be unlocked by placing multiple cards together to complete a larger symbol or rune. if this is getting confusing see the link to a picture of what I am talking about below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxAKO3dysZr5akcyZHJ3dlNGNzQ/view?usp=sh...

You can see how the larger faded markings combine to make a shape once all four cards have been matched up.

You would have to intentionally engineer this so that specific combinations would always create a specific super effect in addition to the normal effects. Or simply figure out all possible combinations and assign super effects to each one. (I say "simply," I am not sure how I would do this but I imagine it is possible to calculate. Though, you could have way too many permutations on your hands if you had a lot of different symbols.)

As far as the push your luck speed mechanic goes, what if you had to form these collections of cards one card at a time in a shared play space which leaves you vulnerable to your opponent stealing or foiling something you are building up towards. It could be an option to use mana to be able to play or draw additional cards on a turn. It could also be that if you complete a symbol you have the option of using its effect immediately or sacrifice the effect to push your luck and draw/play another card in hopes of unlocking the Super effect. Once components have been used they would be removed from the play area.

I can't say I am sold on this push your luck mechanic but it might spark some other ideas from you all.

questccg
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Really great post

@EthosGames: Sorry I did not respond earlier, I was hoping someone else might "chime in". That's some pretty cool ideas. The image is what got me to understand your idea. But instead of forming a 2x2 grid, I would have a 1x6 configuration.

Let me explain why.

The idea would be to turn cards (on their sides) and make for matching connection this way. If you have like five (5) cards *connected*, that's like 4 Mana required. And it can be arranged that UP/DOWN = Ethereal Magic and LEFT/RIGHT = Elemental Magic.

This goes GREAT with the actual Mana colors (and principles). We have a CROSS that represents our Mana colors and it goes like this:

  • Sun (Top) - Moon (Bottom)
  • Earth (Middle)
  • Mountain (Left) - Water (Right)

So turning the cards can allow you to tap into different forms of Magic and you could of course COMBINE those two (2) types of Magic into one BIG/BADASS Spell! :D

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