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Need a good hook to this resource management/area control game

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harmon89
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I've been thinking about this game for a few days and would like some feed back on some mechanics that could be added to give it more of a catch or unique feel.

Here's the basic idea:

You control a small clan on an island home to many forgotten treasures and a limited number resources. The island is broken up into 8 distinct regions. Each region will have a stack of about 10 cards associated with it. When you move to a location you can draw a card from that location's pile if you can pay the cost associated with that location. Once all the cards are gone from each location the game ends. Currently here are the types and number of cards in each region and the cost to draw a card from the location.

Here's a list of the locations. (Names are subject to change)

GOLDFIRE MOUNTAIN
10 Gold cards
Cost: Draw a Meet Wild Beast card AND -2 strength

LAKE OF HEALING
8 Healing cards
Cost: 3 Gold

FORGOTTEN FOREST
7 Resource cards/ 2 Hidden Treasure cards
Cost: Pay 2 Gold

HOLLOW HILLS
2 Gold cards/ 6 Resource cards
Cost: -2 strength

DARK CAVERN
5 Gold cards/ 2 Hidden Treasure cards
Cost: Draw 2 Meet Wild Beast cards

FIELD OF DREAMS
7 Resource cards
Cost: Pay 1 Gold

BLUEWATER BAY
3 Hidden Treasure cards/ 4 Healing cards
Cost: +4 Gold

Lava River
5 Hidden Treasure cards
Cost: Strength -4 and +2 Gold

As you can see from above, there are 4 types of cards. Resource, Gold, Healing, and Hidden Treasure

Resources are used to build things like Settlements, Ships, Wells, Mines, and Towers. These things will help you throughout the game.

Gold helps you get more cards. Many locations require some gold in order to draw a card from that location.

Healing helps increase your strength. Through encounters with Wild Beasts or from being in certain locations your strength drops. Decreasing your strength has many negative effects so you will need healing cards to help mitigate that.

Hidden Treasure cards will give you 1 point at the end of the game.

At the end of the game each player gets 1 point for each hidden treasure they have uncovered, and if they collected the most cards from a location they receive 2 points for winning that location.

So fundamentally the game is an area control and resource management game.

There’s quite a bit more to the game, particularly in the way you can block and fight other players. I think it is fun having a continually depleting supply of cards as people travel around the island drawing them. There's a sense of urgency to draw cards from a stack before they are gone. There could be a lot of difficult choices in determining which locations to go to based on the types of cards you are likely to draw from the card pile from that location as well as weighing the cost of draw a card from there.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

harmon89
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Structures you can build

Here's some detail about the different structures that can be built.

SHIP
2 Resource cards
Benefit – Able to go from where ship is located to any other location. (Since all the locations touch the water). Normally you would have to move to a location adjacent to where your character is currently positioned on the board.

WELL
2 Resource cards
Benefit – Increase Strength +1 whenever playing a healing card

MINE
3 Resource cards
When drawing a card that costs gold, Pay 1 less gold for each mine you have. (Must build in cave or mountain)

TOWER
3 Resource cards
Opponents must pay you 1 sword card when traveling through a region you have a tower in. If you have a tower in a region you never have to pay anyone a sword card while in that region. There can be up to 2 towers in a region. If you are in a location that another player is in and they do not have a tower in that location or an adjacent location, but you do, you may randomly draw one card from their hand that is from the location you both are presently at.

SETTLEMENT cards
3 Resources
Draw 2 cards instead of 1 when at the location of the settlement. Still only pay the cost once.

I should mention that on your turn rather than moving to draw a card, there is also a pile of gold cards (they all only have a value of 1) and you can draw 1 of those, increase your strength by 1, or draw a sword card.

radioactivemouse
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Seems like...

The mechanics you describe feel like Pathfinder Adventure Card Game.

harmon89
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radioactivemouse wrote:The

radioactivemouse wrote:
The mechanics you describe feel like Pathfinder Adventure Card Game.

I've never played that game so I looked it up. It seems the main similarity is that there are locations that each have their own deck. Is that a fair assessment?

I feel the choices you'd have to make in the game I'm making up might be significantly different enough to not be considered a copy.

Things you might have to decide are, "Should I build a tower now to stake out an area of the board as mine? Should I collect as much gold as possible before it is all gone? Should I build a settlement or should I move and attack another player and steal one of their cards? Should I focus on getting resources first or go straight for the Hidden Treasures and rack up victory points right away? How much priority should I put on building a ship so that I can move around the island more quickly and not have to deal with interacting with areas other players control?

Of course if you think the two games are too similar, got any ideas on how I could distinguish mine enough?

Zag24
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So there are 12 hidden

So there are 12 hidden treasure cards (worth 1 point each) and 8 regions (worth 2 points each), so 28 points total in a game? Have I got that right, or is there more? (This is not a problem, I'm just trying to make sure I understand the setup. Sorry if the tone sounded abrupt. I'm that way in person, too.)

Can I only get one card per turn? That is, if I have 4 gold and I'm in the Field of Dreams, can I just buy 4 cards in one turn? (I guess it has to be only one, or else a single mine would allow me to clean out Field of Dreams, and I see, now, the rule for the Settlement, which clearly implies only one.)

You said, "there are 4 types of cards. Resource, Gold, Healing, and Hidden Treasure" but then you mention sword cards, and also Meet Wild Beast Cards. I assume that the former is to fight off the latter or you lose Strength when you meet them? (But with a sword, you *MEAT* them. :) )

Can I save healing cards? That is, if I'm not wounded now? Or is there no upper bound on strength?

harmon89 wrote:
I should mention that on your turn rather than moving to draw a card, there is also a pile of gold cards (they all only have a value of 1) and you can draw 1 of those, increase your strength by 1, or draw a sword card.

How about resource cards? Can I generate these by sitting around? Also, since you mention that these gold cards have a value of 1, I assume that the ones I get from a region likely have more.

Do you expect that the strength loss you'd take at Goldfire mountain would be enough to buy from the LAKE OF HEALING until you're restored, and you'd still have something left over? Also, I'm betting that if I were to go to the mountain and nearly kill myself collecting several gold, I'd have a great big target on my back for the other players, but I'm just trying to get an idea of how much gold you get.

I definitely looks like an interesting analysis. Do I just laze around to get 4 gold and go to the Field of Dreams to get enough to make a mine (which, I assume, I can't build there) plus one more to lock up the region for 2 points. Or do I try to find a way to make Goldfire mountain and Bluewater bay farming pay off? Or do I pounce on the poor sucker who is trying to make Goldfire mountain and Bluewater bay farming pay off, at some point when he's flush with gold and nearly out of strength?

It does look like it would take a lot of turns, especially if movement is also an action used up, so they do have to be really quick. If you're planning just to sit on your duff for 3 turns to heal up, it gets frustrating when 2 other players are in analysis paralysis, and then spending time fighting wild beasts, etc. Possibly if you have Action Points, so I might do several activities each turn, that might make it a little less frustrating.

How many strength points do you start with? If I can run to HOLLOW HILLS and get 4 cards in a row, I've got that region locked up, plus either gold to buy healing or resources to make a mine so I can go lock up Field of dreams for no cash. Then another mine and all of Forgotten forest is free, assuming other players haven't cleaned it out, yet. But it's still a lot of turns, especially if walking from place to place takes turns, too.

As for a hook, I don't really think you need much. Pirate-fantasy theme or just a fantasy theme works well enough. It looks interesting, as long as the pace is fast. I'd try it.

harmon89
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Thanks for taking the time to

Thanks for taking the time to try to understand the game. Really appreciate it!

Zag24 wrote:
So there are 12 hidden treasure cards (worth 1 point each) and 8 regions (worth 2 points each), so 28 points total in a game? Have I got that right, or is there more? (This is not a problem, I'm just trying to make sure I understand the setup. Sorry if the tone sounded abrupt. I'm that way in person, too.)

Yes, at the moment there are only 28 points, though one way more could be added is if some of the Wild Beast cards offered victory points.

Zag24 wrote:

Can I only get one card per turn? That is, if I have 4 gold and I'm in the Field of Dreams, can I just buy 4 cards in one turn? (I guess it has to be only one, or else a single mine would allow me to clean out Field of Dreams, and I see, now, the rule for the Settlement, which clearly implies only one.)

Yes, you can only get one card on a turn.

Zag24 wrote:

You said, "there are 4 types of cards. Resource, Gold, Healing, and Hidden Treasure" but then you mention sword cards, and also Meet Wild Beast Cards. I assume that the former is to fight off the latter or you lose Strength when you meet them? (But with a sword, you *MEAT* them. :) )

Sorry, yes There would also be sword cards (or I might just use chits instead of cards for swords). Everyone would start with 3 swords and then could gain more through taking them from other players or for an action that could draw one sword.

Zag24 wrote:

Can I save healing cards? That is, if I'm not wounded now? Or is there no upper bound on strength?

My current thought is yes, you can save healing cards. The max strength you can have is 10, so you could save the healing cards for when you go to places where your strength is drained quickly. The danger of having low strength is if you are in the same location as another player and they have 4 or more strength than you they can take one of your cards that is from the location that you two are presently at.

Zag24 wrote:

How about resource cards? Can I generate these by sitting around? Also, since you mention that these gold cards have a value of 1, I assume that the ones I get from a region likely have more.

Yes, you could increase your resource by 1 for an action, but the resource cards from the locations would have a resource value of 2 or 3 on them. The idea is that in general you should use an action to just gain an extra resource or extra gold. You should only do that on occasion if you really want to build something before someone else for example and you need that extra resource.

I'm thinking that every player will have a player mat where they will track their health, gold, swords, resources.

There's a possibility that you will draw a character card that will give everyone slightly different advantages and different things they will start the game with. But on average I'd say everyone starts with at least 3 gold, 3 swords, and 5 health, and maybe 2 resources.

Zag24 wrote:

Do you expect that the strength loss you'd take at Goldfire mountain would be enough to buy from the LAKE OF HEALING until you're restored, and you'd still have something left over? Also, I'm betting that if I were to go to the mountain and nearly kill myself collecting several gold, I'd have a great big target on my back for the other players, but I'm just trying to get an idea of how much gold you get.

All good questions! It will take some playtesting to get everything right. I would like a visit to Goldfire mountain to be good for a couple turns at least so that you don't have to go back to the mountain every other turn. I'd say the Gold cards from the mountain would give you a value of 3 and occasionally a value of 4, (and maybe one 5). Of course as you pointed out if you just hang out at the mountain you will lose at least 2 strength each turn you are there, plus any would you get from fighting beasts. Also each turn you have to fight a beast so as your strength diminishes, the less likely you will win a confrontation with a beast.

Zag24 wrote:

I definitely looks like an interesting analysis. Do I just laze around to get 4 gold and go to the Field of Dreams to get enough to make a mine (which, I assume, I can't build there) plus one more to lock up the region for 2 points. Or do I try to find a way to make Goldfire mountain and Bluewater bay farming pay off? Or do I pounce on the poor sucker who is trying to make Goldfire mountain and Bluewater bay farming pay off, at some point when he's flush with gold and nearly out of strength?

You are right to assume that you can't build a mine on the field. I think you should only be able to build a mine at the Mountain or the Cavern. It will take some adjustments I'm sure to make sure that isn't one clear strategy, but many ways to obtain victory, and where you have to use the strengths of your character, and the situation of your opponents to win.

Zag24 wrote:

It does look like it would take a lot of turns, especially if movement is also an action used up, so they do have to be really quick. If you're planning just to sit on your duff for 3 turns to heal up, it gets frustrating when 2 other players are in analysis paralysis, and then spending time fighting wild beasts, etc. Possibly if you have Action Points, so I might do several activities each turn, that might make it a little less frustrating.

How many strength points do you start with? If I can run to HOLLOW HILLS and get 4 cards in a row, I've got that region locked up, plus either gold to buy healing or resources to make a mine so I can go lock up Field of dreams for no cash. Then another mine and all of Forgotten forest is free, assuming other players haven't cleaned it out, yet. But it's still a lot of turns, especially if walking from place to place takes turns, too.

As for a hook, I don't really think you need much. Pirate-fantasy theme or just a fantasy theme works well enough. It looks interesting, as long as the pace is fast. I'd try it.

I'd have to play it a couple times to see if it feels like there are too many turns. Currently there would be a little over 50 cards total, so if there were 5 players and everyone took a card each turn. (I'm thinking it doesn't cost a turn to build, but I might change that). Of course with fewer players there would be more actions for everyone. Also, moving isn't a big deal because you could get across the entire island in about 3 moves (1 if you have a ship).

Thanks for giving me some things to think about.

radioactivemouse
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No offense.

harmon89 wrote:
radioactivemouse wrote:
The mechanics you describe feel like Pathfinder Adventure Card Game.

I've never played that game so I looked it up. It seems the main similarity is that there are locations that each have their own deck. Is that a fair assessment?

I feel the choices you'd have to make in the game I'm making up might be significantly different enough to not be considered a copy.

Things you might have to decide are, "Should I build a tower now to stake out an area of the board as mine? Should I collect as much gold as possible before it is all gone? Should I build a settlement or should I move and attack another player and steal one of their cards? Should I focus on getting resources first or go straight for the Hidden Treasures and rack up victory points right away? How much priority should I put on building a ship so that I can move around the island more quickly and not have to deal with interacting with areas other players control?

Of course if you think the two games are too similar, got any ideas on how I could distinguish mine enough?

I wasn't trying to insult you or bury your game. It was merely an observation. Yes, the similarities are there, but I brought up that example to possibly give inspiration for some of the mechanics since that's a well established game.

harmon89
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Thanks. :) I wasn't sure how

Thanks. :)

I wasn't sure how I was supposed to take that. It is good to know which games are most similar to the one I'm working on. It's inevitable that it will be similar to some game out there, so it is good to know what those games are so that you can differentiate yourself from them.

Zag24
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harmon89 wrote:Also, moving

harmon89 wrote:
Also, moving isn't a big deal because you could get across the entire island in about 3 moves (1 if you have a ship).

So movement isn't your turn? If you expect that they would each take a card every turn, when do they move?

I could see you saying that every turn you can take two actions, but only one of those may be gaining a card and only one may be collecting charity (i.e. the free gold, health, or sword). However, you could do one move and one charity, or one of either and a move, or two moves. This would make hanging out at Field of dreams seem very tempting, but hopefully there are other, equally profitable strategies.

Good luck! Keep us informed.

harmon89
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My original thought is that

My original thought is that on your turn you could draw from the location you are at or from an adjacent location. Now movement would cost you if you wanted to move to a location that wasn't adjacent. The reason that I said it would take 3 moves max to move across the island is because there are only 8 locations, with most locations touching 2-3 other landmarks, so getting from one end of the board wouldn't be too hard. So perhaps you could take a "charity" if you didn't draw a card from any locations.

Yes, in the field of dreams you could draw a card and next turn collect a coin and then the next turn draw a card again and keep doing that, but something tells me that wouldn't be a very efficient way to play since charity doesn't really give you all that much. If in playtesting one location is too much better than the others they could always be adjusted.

Thanks for your encouragement!

Zag24
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I was responding to this

I was responding to this comment of yours

harmon89 wrote:
Currently there would be a little over 50 cards total, so if there were 5 players and everyone took a card each turn. (I'm thinking it doesn't cost a turn to build, but I might change that). Of course with fewer players there would be more actions for everyone. Also, moving isn't a big deal because you could get across the entire island in about 3 moves (1 if you have a ship).

You suggest that possibly everyone takes a card every turn, but I doubt you'd get even half that if just getting to the territory you want takes 3 turns, and people spend an occasional turn collecting strength or gold charity, and they spend some turns fighting each other, etc. However, if the turns are very fast, then a game of 20-25 turns for 5 people isn't horrible, but I think it's pushing it.

That's why I suggested the two-part turns, so that you can get pretty close to each person getting 1 card per turn. Note that it isn't quite the same as just double turns, because even though you get two actions, only one of them can be picking up a card. It makes the opportunity cost of movement less painful, because you have limited options in the secondary action, anyway. Without such a thing, a lot of the game becomes centered around "How do I get the things done I want to do with a minimum of movement?" This isn't really that fun.

Anyway, think about it.

Consider this: I want to do GoldFire and Bluewater farming. My turns look like this:

1, 2: move from starting location to GoldFire
3: Take a gold card, lose 2 strength and a sword
4: Take a gold card, lose 2 strength and a sword. I'm at 1 strength now, so a prime target for an aggressor. If someone else is close, I might have to rest just to be sure I'm not 4 below him.
5, 6: Move to Lake of Healing. Note that I can't go to Bluewater because if I get "lucky" and pick up two treasure cards, I'm screwed because now I can't get healing.
7, 8: Take 2 healing cards. If they total less than 6 I'm really in trouble, because I'm down to a single sword. Let's assume they total 7, so I now have 8 strength.
9, 10: Back to Goldfire
11: Take a card, lose 4-5 strength (keeping my last sword, in case I get unlucky and lose 6 strength, here). (I'm assuming, from the balance between Goldfire and Dark Cavern, that the expectation for 'meet wild beast' is 2-3 strength lost if you are out of swords.)
12: As long as I lost only 5 strength, I can afford to take another card and lose 2 strength and my last sword. If I got really unlucky against the wild beast last turn, I can't afford the 2 strength that it costs me even with a sword, unless I rest for a turn. Note that I have only 2 gold cards, and I'm back down to 1 strength, so I STILL can't afford to go to Bluewater Bay. I need the healing and only have enough gold for 2 cards.

I could, instead, start by going to Field of Dreams and spending my 3 gold in 3 turns to get 3 resources. I could then spend those on a mine, or perhaps on a settlement on Goldfire. However, this puts me on a schedule 5 whole turns behind the last one. However, I do get 4 cards from Goldfire for 4 strength and 2 swords, so am able to get out of the trap of barely getting enough gold to buy enough healing to fix me up from the damage from getting the gold.

Look at the same thing with the 2-part turn. I think the simplest description is that you have two actions, but they have to be different, with the one exception that they can be both move.

1a&b. Move to Field of dreams
2a, take a resource card; 2b rest to heal up to 6 str
3a, take a resource card; 3b rest to heal up to 7 str
4a, take a resource card; 4b Move towards Goldfire
5a, move to Goldfire; 5b build a settlement there
6a, Take 2 cards, pay 2 str and a sword. 6b rest to heal up to 6
7a, Take 2 cards, pay 2 str and a sword. 7b rest to heal up to 5
8a, Take 2 cards, pay 2 str and a sword. 8b rest to heal up to 4
9a. Rest to get another sword. Take 2 cards, str is now 2.
Head for healing ...

Depending on what others are doing, I might have stayed at Field of dreams another turn, collecting 1 gold charity but locking up the 2 victory points for having the majority of that region's cards. Then one more resource and I can build a well before I start consuming the healing cards I'll be getting from the Lake of Healing. (Or, if I got lucky on the 8 gold cards I'm carrying, I would go to Bluewater Bay, instead.)

Hmmm. I had been thinking that the settlement was not that great, but now I'm starting to think that it's overpowered. OTOH, if someone else got just three of the Goldfire cards, then I can't execute that plan, and the settlement becomes much less worthwhile. And now that I've cleaned it out, that settlement is useless.

Anyway, as you can see, I enjoy doing these sorts of analyses way too much. I hope this was helpful.

harmon89
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Zag24, I think you are right.

Zag24, I think you are right. I think having 2 actions, but they both can't be to draw a card would work well. I was thinking maybe that would make a ship useless, but since with it you could get anywhere on the island for 1 action, still giving you an additional turn, maybe it would still be quite valuable.

Yeah, the settlement could potentially be quite helpful, though if you build it when the location is almost already drained, maybe not so much. I was thinking maybe it could be worth the equivalent of 2 cards when counting at the end to determine who wins a region, while the towers are the equivalent of 1 card. So these two buildings would play a part in determining who controls a region.

I've been thinking a little bit how conflict should work. What if whenever more than one player is at a location everyone at that location has to pay 1 sword. If a player has no swords and you are at that location you can draw a card from their hand. If a player is more than 1 location away from one of their towers, and you have 3 or more strength than that player you can draw a card from their hand. Of course I'd have to come up with a good way for players to get swords. I'm thinking one of your 2 actions can be getting 2 more swords. Also, whenever someone passes through a location where you have a tower, they have to pay you 1 sword so you could get some that way, especially if you strategically place your towers.

I really like your little analysis you've done. Feel free to do some more of it if you'd like.

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