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Pick-up and delivery/business style game based on Pizza

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Tue, 07/21/2009 - 08:55
DanMacK
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Hello all

In developing my train game Switchbacks and Sidetracks, I was thinking about other implementations of the "Pick-up and delivery" mechanic. This, inevitably, brought me to pizza. Preliminary research has turned up a couple of similar games, but nothing exactly what I'm thinking of doing, and feedback is appreciated.
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Pizza Panic? (Name in development) - Delivery in 3 turns or it's free!
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For 2-6 players (Possibly 2-4)
Includes:
1 board
80 Delivery cards
24 Vehicle cards (6 of each type - Bicycle, scooter, car, van)
60 Pizza tokens in 3 different colours (20 red, 20 green, 20 black)
6 pawns
Money in $1,5,10,20,50,100 increments
6 small houses - Blue, Green, Red, Yellow, black, white
6 'hotels' - Blue, Green, Red, Yellow, black, white
6 large restaurants - Blue, Green, Red, Yellow, black, white
===================
You begin with a small pizza shop, a bicycle and a dream. Your goal is to sell as many pizzas as possible and reap the rewards. You can make the choice of staying small and local or expand your business.

The game board consists of a city map on a grid. There are obstacles in the streets that players must navigate as well. I'm debating how to set addresses for the players to deliver to. Each square may have an address, or possibly 2 addresses depending on the corner. I need to develop the board more before actually figuring this out. I may just break the city up into lots and make it more freeform than just a rigid grid.

Players select any region on the map to build their shop. Players theoretically could start at opposite ends of the city or right next to each other. Cards with pizza orders from around the city are drawn and players race to complete their orders.

Gameplay begins with players placing their pizza parlour (represented by a house in their colour) on the board. The first delivery vehicle available is a bicycle. Delivery vehicles have a set speed and capacity. Players draw four delivery cards and place them face-up in front of them. Each card has two deliveries and players can decide which deliveries to take advantage of.

Players initially can only create two types of pizza, Cheese and Pepperoni. The other two types are Vegetarian and Deluxe, both of which are available when the pizzaria is upgraded to a Level 2 (represented by a hotel)

Delivery Vehicles also can be upgraded for a cost. You can upgrade to a Motor scooter, a car and a delivery van. All are represented by cards in front of the player, the pawns remain the same.
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I'm still working out logistics and player interaction. I thought of possibly having a general pool of deliveries available and have players compete for them (first delivery gets paid type thing). Sabotage cards and other 'disaster' cards are a possibility to enhance gameplay as well. This is still very much a WIP, but I'd really like to develop it further.

Suggestions are welcomed.

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Tue, 07/21/2009 - 14:56
#1
scifiantihero
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Joined: 07/08/2009
Don't know . . .

. . . how big your board is going to be, but for addresses you could have a couple d10s (6, 6, 12, w/e): One with numbered street names and one with street names (elm, oak, maple . . . all trees might be kinda cute). These would correspond to the horizontal and vertical lines that make your grid. Call comes in, player rolls the dice, that's where the pizza goes!

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Tue, 07/21/2009 - 15:17
#2
metzgerism
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You need a $2 bill

There's a reason why the United States is behind the times - not enough $2 bills/coins.

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Tue, 07/21/2009 - 17:47
#3
DanMacK
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Random rolling for addresses

I thought of that (the random rolling), I also thought of having the address right on the card, but that could make things a bit repetitive. The initial playtest map was likely going to be a grid, but I may make the streets more curved so they would look better on the board...

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 00:09
#4
scifiantihero
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So yeah . . .

I spent my evening thinking of pizza delivery games at work, rather than my pirate games. Thanks ;)

I was thinking a grid board would work pretty well for the random addresses. It would be simple, and it could be beautified a little with colored zones. You might have a few blocks be the sports district where the stadiums are and such. When the event card "Big Game" gets flipped (in my mind there are some sort of events getting triggered somehow) players can't go through that district, but they sell pizzas for 2 dollars more everywhere else (since the stadium is so crowded, but there's lots of people staying home to watch the game.

Also, pizza orders could be randomized on dice as well. for instance, each starting pizza store gets to roll a d6 with cheese, cheese, cheese, peperoni, peperoni, cheese and peperoni. Roll three dice (two for the address, one for the order type) and bam, there's the order, you can decide whether your shop can fill it. Upgrade to the second level shop and you get to roll and additional die with cheese, peperoni, veggie, supreme, nothing, nothing. Third level shop gets to roll a third die of cheese, veggie, veggie, supreme, supreme, nothing. Those are just sort of examples of how the system might work, but it sounds easy and intuitive. Probably saves the price of a deck of cards as well!

Keeping track of orders, how long they've been waiting, what car has what pizza sounds like it could get a little clunky and fiddly. I guess if there was a vehicle limit (which would make a set number of little plastic cars/ bikes pretty neat) then individual player sheets with "orders in" and then "vehicle one," "vehicle 2," etc might be a pretty easy way to keep track of who's got what.

Keeping track of late deliveries might be a little harder . . . (though it might be neat to have the pizza only make half as much money if late, which would give people the choice to deliver it late or not. If it takes one more turn, sure, make a little money back. If events made you unable to even get out the door, just scrap it.) Maybe places on the players individual boards for the pizzas to go, counting down, and at the beginning of each turn the pizzas/ markers just get slid down one space. An event card like"No Traffic" might even let them slide in the opposite direction, if the game is a little bit abstract with time (which it probably has to be).

So yeah, that's some of what I was thinking about tonight!

:)

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 01:57
#5
metzgerism
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Simple solution...

"Keeping track of late deliveries might be a little harder . . . (though it might be neat to have the pizza only make half as much money if late, which would give people the choice to deliver it late or not. If it takes one more turn, sure, make a little money back. If events made you unable to even get out the door, just scrap it.) Maybe places on the players individual boards for the pizzas to go, counting down, and at the beginning of each turn the pizzas/ markers just get slid down one space. An event card like"No Traffic" might even let them slide in the opposite direction, if the game is a little bit abstract with time (which it probably has to be)."

This could be explained away simply:

The faster you deliver, the higher the value - the customer gives a higher tip.
The slower you deliver, the lower the value - the customer gets mad and demands a discount, no tip.
The value of an order can simply tick away at a standard rate each and every turn that you DON'T deliver it.

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 02:55
#6
scifiantihero
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Mmm

I guess the problem I was imaging was the physical ticking down of a few dozen counters for all the players orders somewhere on the table at any given time.

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 03:26
#7
metzgerism
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Touch money

scifiantihero wrote:
I guess the problem I was imaging was the physical ticking down of a few dozen counters for all the players orders somewhere on the table at any given time.
Nah, here's what you do:

When you get the delivery assignment, set a pile of cash equal to the value of the delivery into a holding area.
Every turn you don't deliver, take out some predetermined amount of cash from that area.

Basically, you determine the value at the start, apply decay each turn, and then take the money when you've finished the task.
If you used a reverse-scoring track to signify this, you would also be translating the cash value into an abstract 'ticker' at the beginning, and then again at the end of the job.
It saves a step or two.

Plus, if you give players a chance to feel the stack of money before and after, you have a tactile element to the mechanism, as well as a psychological screwing of the player. It's all fun :)

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 03:38
#8
scifiantihero
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Hehe:)

I understand what you're saying.

I am just worried about the point in the game where four players with five pizza shops each delivering two pizzas result in forty little tracks/ stacks of money that have to be sitting somewhere.

Just not sure how big the game might get. I run into this with stuff I've worked on >.<

:)

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 05:21
#9
metzgerism
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Hrm

Alright (sorry to be so cut and dry throughout the thread, btw)...

Well, I think ultimately the game would have to be a little more linear/simple. I know it kinda flies in the face of some of the things that we said in the simplicity thread, but there's a reason for it.

I did pizza delivery for a few months, and enjoyed it.
I rarely went out with more than one order, and never with three. It wasn't a particularly busy pizzeria, but many pizza places advertise a "one order per driver" policy, so thematically, one order doesn't seem too out of the question.

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 08:31
#10
DanMacK
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Alot of interesting ideas here

re: Dice - I thought of having this instead of cards, I guess the cost of custom dice needs to be compared against cards. I figured having the event cards meshed in with the order cards, but a separate deck is a possibility as well. The streets will be divided into squares, so even with a set movement rate, you can land on an event square to draw a card.

The plan with the pizzarias was each player only having one. With 2 or more, management gets very fiddly and bogged down. I could try multiple during playtesting, but I think one-of is probably the better way to go. This cuts down on play time, micromanagement, and component cost. I was aiming for about a 2 hour play time with 4 people.

I do really like the dice idea though, and could have stickers for the dice as well to cut down on costs. It would also appeal to younger players. I may need a D10 or D12 (maybe even a D20) for the actual address number depending on how I set up the board. I need to get an actual board started to test some theories and ideas and such, at the moment, the dice are still just rolling around in my head.

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 08:46
#11
metzgerism
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DanMacK wrote:re: Dice - I

DanMacK wrote:
re: Dice - I thought of having this instead of cards, I guess the cost of custom dice needs to be compared against cards. I figured having the event cards meshed in with the order cards, but a separate deck is a possibility as well. The streets will be divided into squares, so even with a set movement rate, you can land on an event square to draw a card.

The plan with the pizzarias was each player only having one. With 2 or more, management gets very fiddly and bogged down. I could try multiple during playtesting, but I think one-of is probably the better way to go. This cuts down on play time, micromanagement, and component cost. I was aiming for about a 2 hour play time with 4 people.

I do really like the dice idea though, and could have stickers for the dice as well to cut down on costs. It would also appeal to younger players. I may need a D10 or D12 (maybe even a D20) for the actual address number depending on how I set up the board. I need to get an actual board started to test some theories and ideas and such, at the moment, the dice are still just rolling around in my head.

I would say have a number of pizzerias scattered - every parlor is part of the same chain, all players work for the same company, and it's just a corporate trial to see who is the best delivery person (like there's a huge bonus or something).

This way, mechanically, players in one part of the map might not have to hoof it all the way to their "home" pizzeria. Orders come up (generally) based on location, so the closest player to it might have the best chance to get it. First to take the order gets the job.

You could use a square 20x20 grid and assign x and y values using d20s.

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 09:21
#12
DanMacK
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metzgerism wrote:I would say

metzgerism wrote:
I would say have a number of pizzerias scattered - every parlor is part of the same chain, all players work for the same company, and it's just a corporate trial to see who is the best delivery person (like there's a huge bonus or something).

This way, mechanically, players in one part of the map might not have to hoof it all the way to their "home" pizzeria. Orders come up (generally) based on location, so the closest player to it might have the best chance to get it. First to take the order gets the job.

You could use a square 20x20 grid and assign x and y values using d20s.

Hmmm, interesting idea. I was kind of aiming for the "tycoon" aspect rather than the strictly delivery aspect though. That allows for the upgrades for both the vehicle and pizza parlour. I was trying to add more strategy and thinking into it than just a strictly delivery game. That's why the order cards were thought of originally, players draw 4 level 1 cards and plan their location based on the cards in their hand. "Market Research" as it were.

The 2D20 idea is good as well, and a possibility if I did stick with a strictly grid based board. I'm still lenaing towards a more freeform board though, more for aesthetics than anything else.

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 14:59
#13
scifiantihero
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hmm

DanMacK wrote:

I was kind of aiming for the "tycoon" aspect rather than the strictly delivery aspect though. That allows for the upgrades for both the vehicle and pizza parlour.

I'm still lenaing towards a more freeform board though, more for aesthetics than anything else.

If I was in a tycoonish game (pizza empire building) I'd definitely be wanting to build lots of little pizza shops.

I guess I'd have to wait to see what you meant by "free form," but driving in Seattle is a whole lot easier than driving in Boston (downtown Seattle is pretty much a planned grid, Boston is . . . free form would be a delicate way of phrasing it.)

:)

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 15:55
#14
Dirg
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Joined: 07/15/2009
You could look into splitting

You could look into splitting up the city into "territories" each player picks 1 territory for his first shop. You only deliver in your territory, the more and faster you deliver increases profit. Actual delivery would be more abstract than what your currently have but would cater more to "pizza town tycoon" idea. You can add more shops in your territory increasing volume and speed of business. Also you could spend even more to branch into other territories. Players would spend money to modify how loyal each territory is to their parlor modified by how many shops they have, delivery vehicles and advertising. Other players would muscle and try to steal your business and customers.

I think you have to either focus on delivery and 1 shop running or expand to a more "tycoon" view if you try to do both you probably end up with a mess.

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 16:37
#15
metzgerism
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scifiantihero wrote:DanMacK

scifiantihero wrote:
DanMacK wrote:

I was kind of aiming for the "tycoon" aspect rather than the strictly delivery aspect though. That allows for the upgrades for both the vehicle and pizza parlour.

I'm still lenaing towards a more freeform board though, more for aesthetics than anything else.

If I was in a tycoonish game (pizza empire building) I'd definitely be wanting to build lots of little pizza shops.

I guess I'd have to wait to see what you meant by "free form," but driving in Seattle is a whole lot easier than driving in Boston (downtown Seattle is pretty much a planned grid, Boston is . . . free form would be a delicate way of phrasing it.)

:)

Yeah, you have to remember than almost every urban and suburban area uses a strict grid for a majority of their roads, especially in downtown areas (here in San Jose downtown is twisted 30 degrees...much like Manhattan but in the opposite direction). If you're going for realism the two d20's will probably deliver.

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 18:04
#16
sedjtroll
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Pizza Delivery theme

I had a Pizza Delivery themed game that I always wanted to finish, but never made any headway on past a certain point. Here's a description from my old userpage on the old BGDF site:

Hot and Fresh™
A routeplanning/press-your-luck/pickup-deliver game about delivering pizza and breaking traffic laws. Traffic lights change over time, making the available routes dynamic. Rewards for deliveries (tips) go down over time, so there's pressure to go as fast as possible, but as you break the traffic laws it becomes increasingly likely that you'll get busted by the cops.

And here are all the blog posts I've made about the game in my game design blog. Maybe something in there will be useful to you. The last thing I remember thinking about the game was that the interaction might be too low, and also that the Pizza Delivery thing - with 1 pickup point and multiple dropoff points - might not work as well as, say, a taxi theme, with multiple pickup points.

http://sedjtroll.blogspot.com/search/label/HF

Good luck!

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Wed, 07/22/2009 - 19:53
#17
DanMacK
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Alot of great thoughts here.

Alot of great thoughts here. Thanks for the link to that Blog, I'll definitely peruse it. My worry is the same about interaction. I'll see what I can do.

re: "Freeform" street idea
=======================
By this, I meant a bit more than just a standard grid layout, but not too strange. It may possibly be based on a street layout from my home town to start. Instead of just having a sterile graph-like grid with roads and such, make the city look a bit more natural. Roads would be marked off into spaces with the addresses next to these spaces.

re: "Tycoon Lite" idea
==================
The "Go Big or not at all" is what I'm thinking of here. I'm thinking Gameplay vs cost, and regions is a good idea. Each player has one pizza place. I thoguht of having more as a possibility, but that adds complexity, more parts and more cost. By having one pizza restaurant with an upgrade as well as the various types of pizza, my thought was this would give a business-like feel, while not being too in depth (ie 10 different pizzarias with 30 trucks zooming around the city)

The option for additional locations and delivery vehicles would likely be added as a variant in the rules, but I don't think I'd do it to start off. I'm not looking for a huge business sim here, just something reasonably simple for a first game.

I hope to get a prototype done in the next week or so to test my theories and play around with the concept.

Basic Gameplay Ideas
=================
The basic gameplay, as I ennvisioned, would go as follows: (Based on my original concept)
Players first draw 4 cards from the "Level One" delivery pile. Based on the locations on their cards, players then select the location for their franchise. If the locations are scattered all over the city, players can either make a go of it, or flush their hand and draw 4 new cards.

Re: the cards, I'm still debating as to whether to have 2 decks of order cards depending on level with 1 order each, one deck with 2 different orders per card with random level 1 and level 2 orders or one deck with one order per card. I'm leaning towards the first option, but the second one is also an option.

After the pizza places have been placed, the pawns start on the street in front of them and play begins. Player order may be determined by youngest, maximum delivery rate from the deck or the highest vehicle type drawn from a random pile. As I'm leaning towards no dice, that may be the best option.
============
I'm planning to have situation or "Chance" cards so to speak as well. The streets would have a coloured space corresponding to the "Pick a card" square, and players would draw. The situations will be both good and bad. Some amy even require a competition of sorts maybe determined by a die roll? - IE "Town Pizza Competition. Each player rolls to see their score, prize $50.00" or something like that.

I may also add obstacles on the board, like an accident, railroad crossings, etc - if you land on them, lose a turn... Movement rates will be set, ie, no random rolling, but sometimes one route may be the sameas another. Bear in mind these are just ideas, and will be further refined as the playtesting actually starts.

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Thu, 07/23/2009 - 14:31
#18
sedjtroll
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Thematic Consonance

Thematically, if each player has their own pizza place, then they are probably each getting their own deliveries (customers call them and order) - in which case are they simply playing solitaire? 4 players just making deliveries of their own on the same map at the same time? If so, there would have to be some other kind of interaction - maybe a way to slow a player down, or run them off the road (like Circus Maximus or some other racing game).

If they're all getting orders from the same face up draft pool or something (what I was considering), then it doesn't make sense for them to work at different pizza places - it's not like people who want pizza just put their order into a hopper and whichever pizza place takes care of it first gets paid for it... though that might be neat if it worked that way!

This is why I was thinking of switching to taxis instead of pizza delivery - with various pickups popping up all over the place, players would be in direct competition for them.

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Thu, 07/23/2009 - 19:02
#19
DanMacK
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Player Interaction

Player interaction is something I've been thinking about more. I was thinking one of the things I could do is have a discard pile for non-completed orders.

Players would keep their delivered cards until the deck was exhausted, then possibly score that round or "night" and reshuffle for the next night, or just reshuffle and continue.

When an order card is completed, players put it into their pile. I'm thinking of some form of points scoring based on completed orders.

If a player decides to discard a card, it goes face-up next to the draw pile. Another player can then pick up the order (equivalent to the customer calling another pizzaria after being told "we don't deliver to your area")

Sabotage and other cards are possible. That's why I thought of having the "best pizza" contest card. It's only one card, but it's a start. Sabotage cards could be kept in a player's hand and played when needed. I'm also thinking of other options.

Player interactions are one of the hardest part of designing games I've noticed.

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Tue, 08/25/2009 - 00:17
#20
mrholty
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I've tried some similar things

About 6 months ago I started to try and build my own game with a similar theme except it was one guy ran a Chinese restaurant, one had a pizza parlor etc. I've moved away from it lately and it still sits there taunting me as I think it would be great. Its also the only game I've messed with that my wife was interested in.

My biggest problem in a few play tests was that if you owned two vehicles it took a long time per player to complete their actions and there was a lot of waste in picking up certain customers.

Mine basically went like this:
First you got $100. You could buy one of 8 locations ranging from $20 to $90. You then could buy different cars ranging from $10-50. Closer to the center was better. Then you would flip over customer cards and start to deliver. You would roll and move based on time.

Profits decreased as above. Only 6-8 cards were usually in play per round so it was easy to manage. However it became a game of solitare as you'd only take the ones closest to you.

The taxi idea is actually very good. I started to switch mine to a UPS/Fed Ex delivery game but then it basically was a railroad and deliver game. I wish you the best of luck and I'd gladly playtest sometime.

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