With the lack of interest in my PnP MOBA, I was wondering if there was any interest in a Starcraft style PnP? A little while ago, I had made a playable pen and paper "RTS", but I no longer have the paper with the rules. Luckily, I remember fairly well how it works, and was wondering if there was any interest? If so, I'd probably start with a pen and paper playtest, and if all goes well, make it PnP.
Thoughts?
You got my curiosity. I had many pen and paper "RTS" in the past when I was young. I copied most dune and C&C games and thought of some units myself that fit right in.
At first it was a drawing of Dune2 maps where I only would draw my base with units against an enemy base with units. Later on I wanted to do battles, so the units where cut out and could move around on fields. Most version could be played on a chessboard. And later on I also used graph paper as field.
I had lots of fun.
It is a big history for me. And I learned a lot back then already. But mostly, that I hated making the balance right. So eventually I started calculating and testing a lot. And back then I concluded that balancing a RTS would be impossible.
I now know better though, it depends on the mechanics that you use. So I got one PnP version that is fully tested and balanced.
***
Here are some questions :)
What kind of rules, mechanics and math do you use?
What statistics do you use?
How much RPS do you have?
And do you have the natural and/or artificial RPS?
And most importantly, did you really have RTS, or was more of a step by step, simultaneous fight?
Well, still trying to get a picture. But if it is starcraft, I already know what the units are going to be. However, I think you did make some changes for better balancing. Since starcraft is a linear game without randomness.
I suppose you have rules written down somewhere?
I have a lot of questions. To some of them, I got something alike. But I am curious if you have them figured out and how.
- How does your fog work? I never got fog working.
- The number of players that I can have is 2 to 6. Can you have 2+?
- Do you use the 3 damage type as well? Or did you thought of something similar? (Currently, I have 3 damage types, but I can expand with more)
- By how you described your hits and shields. With equal weapons to equal defence, we get that about 50% hits go through. But even the highest shield might let damage go through. Although, are players willingly to throw around a high number of dice?
Siege tank, siege mode. 70 dice?
Reaver, 100 dice? After upgrade 125 dice?
I got several dice rounds too, but only in the worst case scenario you have to throw around 36 dice for 7 times. On average about 12 dice for 2-3 times.
- In what way did you balance the costs?
I got a little manual for that. But the balance is about 99% now without a play test.
- And how long does a game take?
2-3 hours in my case.
- What about upgrades?
I allow XP, upgrades that cost money are not in my game (yet).
- And are you keeping track of weapons that fire slower?
The balance to that in starcraft was off. A lot of people where saying that Siege tanks are OP. So I calculated and concluded that the fire rate was still to high.
- In some older versions, I used the side bar pictures. You know, the pictures for building/training something.
SC has bad versions for that though. Did you draw the units? Since I am bad in graphics, I don't have my own designs in a professional way yet.
I'll be interested to see what it looks like. I am a fan of the starcraft board game and theme, but I cannot play the video games (or most RTS).
Some time ago, I made the suggestion that they should make a deck building game about starcraft with something similar to Rune Age. Everybody seemed enthistic about it. Maybe that could give you some ideas.
I also have my Rats Craft project in design where some ideas could be borrowed depending on the type of game you want to make. It's basically a parody of the starcraft board game.
I would say, go for it.
FOG
The fog of war issue though. When things are invisible to the opponent, even the position of something. Than players could cheat.
To keep things fair, even with stratego you could track the opponent too. And with the seabattle games you could check your opponent in the end.
However, I don't know if it is possible for your game.
I tried to get some fog as well, but I thought of a referee instead (normally you have a pc doing the job). That never worked though, the referee could get bored or could take sides.
TYPES
explosive was the anti armor version.
I think the other one was called concusive and was used by ghosts/flamebats
The % of damage I still remember clearly:
Concusive: 100-50-25
Normal: 100-100-100
Explosive: 50-75-100
But back then I used simple numbers to multiply with. A percentage brings problems. For example, the hydralisk had 10 damage but explosive. So 7,5 damage against medium units. However, the game decided randomly if that last damage was done or not. If not, the very next time it was done. Made no sense if you ask me.
So perhaps it is better to have 4-2-1, 4-4-4 and 2-3-4.
XP
With XP my units can rank up with stats chosen by the player. Speed, Range, Health and Damage. Since they can be increase infinitaly.
Other stats stay fixed like accuracy and agility. Since they would hit a maximum.
I realised that stats also need to be in balance as well. So I stopped using actual ranks and started to think of XP costs for each item. The cheapest is 50 XP while one of the most expensive is over 5000 XP. The effects too are different for each unit.
STATS
Still curious :)
Can you post some?
"Stratego" FOG
There was a moment when I had my whole squad stealthed. There where blanks too, and the number of cards was always the same size. However, after a while you could remember where the forces are by fighting them. So after some battle, a player would mix them up again.
This method proves to be good. But then we started adding XP. So we needed to use XP blanks too. And the pile could start tumbling. Unless we cut back on numbers/field.
Funny:
Hp 3
Atk 1
Def 1
Spd 2
Rng 2 (+AA)
Escept for the AA, this marine resembles my Rifle Infantry a lot. Also 3 Health, 1 Damage, (1 Damage multiplier), 1 Armor, 2 Speed and 2 Range, further it has 100% accuracy and 0% dodgebility. But mine resembles the one from C&C. And costs 100.
The Marine in my game has higher stats and costs 250 (5 times the SC costs, I had my reasons :) )
XP
XP can be spend on 1 unit while the entire squad made the kills. Thus with a basic healt/death ratio of 3. And a squad of 3600. Would result in a maximum of 1200 XP that can be gained. This on a Rifle Infantry that costs only 100. Well, if all is spend on health and damage equally. That Rifle Infantry would be worth 250. + 150.
If spend on 2 Rifle Infantry at the same time, we get 2 times 200. +200.
Now that aint much on 3600. (3750 or 3800). But after 3 fights. We have 6 Rifle Infantry that are twice as strong. (4200).
However, I still think this is to slow. But making 1 hero unit form a basic is possible.
For combat stats, in my rats craft game, I limited the range of values (1,2,4 if I remember) buy I gave certain properties to certain units inspired on SC. For example:
Biological or Mechanical unit
Range or Melee attack
Splash vs Direct damage
So that I could have abilities like
Flame thrower: +1 damage vs biological, melee splash damage.
This is somewhat important because star craft is about having a rock-paper-scisor relationship between the units. Instead of just having a stat festival.
True, besides of the mechanical RPS.
Some statistics in Starcraft created a natural RPS system too. I am talking about the size of units, their speed and range.
It is size effect compared to choke points that I consider to be one of the most important RPS situation in SC. It is also why units like the Siege Tank felt so OP.
Range had a bonus when units where standing on a cliff or behind a tree/pile of rocks. A chance on hitting of 70% for each.
Minimum range created a natural disadvantage against melee. And a micro managment disadvantage against other units.
And speed (in combination with melee) could corner units, while ranged units in this chaos would be confused. The attacking melee units simply attacked 100% the unit they where standing closest to. This mean that melee units had 100% focus on 1 target at a time. The smaller ones had a better field.
Air and ground difference is a mechanical RPS relationship that is based on a natural RPS. Even though we find it logical that there is 0 damage here and there. The game has a 0 as factor, or hardcoded that it is impossible.
***
RTS from that time with real stats festivals where:
KKND; (yes, there was a 50% damage against infantry with big weapons, but not noticable since the big units where OP, and later on you went sniper against anything)
Warcraft 1 and Dune 2; the stronger the better. Except for the missile launcher. This one was the center of a RPS system that would be usefull in multiplayer games. But we didn't have those back then.
Warcraft 2; had a stats festival with the upgrades and the simple melee against the strong melee. Practically speaking, no difference. However, the stronger the better.
Warzone2100; while there where a lot mechanical and natural RPS. The fact that certain weapons had different tiers mad that a stat festival. The result was that most player went for the strongest weapon in that class any way. Light cannon? Medium cannon? No, lets have the Heavy cannon. Same for the chain gun.
Summarized, as soon as a game allows for, stronger=better. The game has a weakness against stats festivals.
Can you give us a "simulation" of a battle? I mean, telling what is happening, how its happening, how players are thinking at that moment etc.
Because you did this before, right?
I would like to know if battles are squad based (including tanks etc.) Or each unit is by itself.
And I agree that something like steam rolling needs to be balanced OUT of the game :D. Besides, that was due to the high first shot. They never calculated that out. I once recalculated, and my conclusion was that the rate of fire of the siege tank had to be about twice as slow.
Now, a good way to give units less stats but more RPS system is just like how Larienna has described.
We can choose what to do. But instead of giving options. I rather start with lists to use for the body properties. Than think of weapon properties or simply saying, we are going to have bonusses against...
Material: Organical(Biogical) / Mechanical
Size: Small / Medium / Large
Range: Melee / Short / Medium / Long
Speed: None / Slow / Medium / Fast
Slow moving projectiles for example have a bonus of 3 against Speed = None.
Inaccurate projectiles have a bonus of 2 against Size = Large.
Explosive weapons have at least a bonus of 1 against Mechanical units.
So a slow moving inaccurate projectile will be having a bonus of at least 6 against large structures.
1 action per unit, well, you get that each unit can do something. But with 30 crawling around, you have 30 actions to do.
It is a choice to make.
In SC you had the armor working against each opponent. You described as if it only worked once? If you do this, the number of units brings great imbalance to the game. Especially in the low numbers, when using +100% of forces versus your opponent. A 2 vs 1.
The damage already "doubled". But in a way, you declined the defence. For a RTS copy, we need to keep combat lineair in that regard.
I did not calculate it precisely yet. But here it goes.
A chance on 1 hit:
4/6 hit and 2/6 miss
A chance on 1 shield:
2/6 shield and 4/6 no shield
Comparing the 2 gives,1 marine attacking:
Doing 1 damage = 16/36 = 44,4%
Doing 0 damage = 20/36 = 55,6%
Now with 2 marines attacking:
Doing 2 damage = 64/216 = 29,6%
Doing 1 damage = 96/216 = 44,4%
Doing 0 damage = 56/216 = 25,9%
True average damage done is:
1 Marine = 0,444
2 Marins = 1,037
Thus a x 2,000 of marines means damage x 2,333
Please don't tell me that, the little lonely marine has 2 shields to deal with :).
If you want to use each unit as separate in combat?
How about simply allowing 2 dice for the defender when facing 2 attacking units? This way 2 marines mean x2 in power again.
And if the defender has an armor of 2, it simply uses 2 times 2 dice to defend.
Of course you need to roll separately for each attack against each defence.
And it is still simpler (Obvious faster) than my combat mechanics that I normally use.
I don't know about theme. I can go with any thing:
- Medeval
- Sci-fi
- Modern
- Fantasy
- Sticks 'n Stones
- Eastern
It is mainly your game, you can decide. If you dislike Sci-fi, then we don't do that. But than I also recommend not using Modern.
Often, Fantasy equals Medeval. You mentioned LoTR, we might as well go with that.
With Sticks 'n Stones I mean prehistoric warfare. The most advanced war units might sit on a horse. But no mechanical constructions like a catapult. Those belong in Medeval. Units might use certain berries or pointy plants etc. And throw those.
With Eastern I mean ninja/samura/shinobi. Mostly only knifes and swords.
For reference, take a look at the ares project, it is heavily inspired on starcraft.
 | Power Creep, a Dungeon Pages adventure (0) by jasongreeno |
| Build your own [insert game genre here] (8) by questccg |
| Board Game Blueprint - New Episode Every Wednesday (21) by The Game Crafter |
| Premium Bullet & Premium Toxic Waste Board Game Pieces at The Game Crafter (0) by The Game Crafter |
 | PoA — Major shift back closer to FCE (2) by questccg |
| What “Should” Be in an RPG Design Book (11) by lewpuls |
| Blank Poker Card Sale - 3 Cents Each! (0) by The Game Crafter |
| Blank Playing Cards - Bridge 57mm x 89mm UK (1) by questccg |
| Finally returned after all these years (1) by DyminoMonsters2004 |
| State of the let-off Union - November 2024 (0) by let-off studios |
| Shoppe: The Simulation of Guilds (1) by questccg |
| The fine line between a game and a simulation (22) by X3M |
| Only 24 hours left to bid on games for the Extra Life Charity Auction (0) by The Game Crafter |
| Songs of Conquest is now 60% off plus an additional discount for... (5) by questccg |
| Returned the reMarkable 2 and purchased the BOOX Go 10.3 (3) by questccg |
| Happy Halloween 2024 (0) by questccg |
| Epic Metal Monster Coins - Now on Kickstarter - Created by The Game Crafter (0) by The Game Crafter |
| DuelBotz: Sample New Card (12) by questccg |
| 2 levels for an unit (wargames) (6) by X3M |
| Dragon Spark Playthrough (0) by The Game Crafter |
| New Board Game Pieces - Premium Water Droplet & Premium Blood Droplet (0) by The Game Crafter |
| Designer with an 'almost' ready product (18) by questccg |
| Protospiel Madison - Only 17 Days Away! (0) by The Game Crafter |
| New Board Game Pieces - Premium Milk Bottle & Premium Beer Mug (0) by The Game Crafter |
| Testing chat GPT for mechanics searching (6) by larienna |
Well sweet!
Currently, I am working on some other games, but I definitely want to start this up again. I actually was successfully playing this with some other friends a little while back, and it worked quite well (for a prototype)
Now, let me give a little insight into how mine worked. Technically, an rts wouldn't work as a pnp/boardgame, so I did mine as a turn based game. I DID successfully implement fog of war, which made me pretty happy. The gameplay was actually very streamlined and quite fun. I had one game were I was slowly building up my base, and my friend secretly sneaked up into the middle of the map (because of the fog of war) and built a bunker. I sent out troops and blammo, the were shot down. It was pretty awesome!
So, I'm typing this off of a Wii U Pad, but I'll try to give a fairly concise explanation. The game is based off of Starcraft (obviously...)
Units have health, defense, attack, range, speed, and any other special abilities. The units also have their mineral/gas cost. Units do interact with other ones in your RPS style, in that they have their own strengths and weaknesses. Each turn you can take an action with each of your units. Roll a # of dice equal to your units attack, and the target rolls a # of dice equal to their defense. 1-2 are shields, 3-6 are hits. Each shield rolled by the defender negates one hit from the attacker. Any left over damage is dealt to their health.
If you've played Starcraft, it's fairly similar to it. I was experimenting with custom factions to! Even the resource collecting is nice and simple (IMHO) At the start of your turn, each worker unit may take it's turn to gather 1 resource. To keep it even more simple, you don't have to move your workers to and from your base to transfer resources. It just goes straight to your base. The fog of war also works surprisingly well.
I had some different maps I drew on graph paper, and use letters/tick marks for the units, though I DEFINITELY could make this into a PnP.
Yes? No?