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Synergy in a fantasy pseudo-coop tower defense game

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ninjaneer
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I've been kicking around an idea for a fantasy-themed pseudo-coop tower defense game, and could use some help coming up with ways to improve synergy and make engine-building more interesting.

The overarching theme is that players are the minions of the Dark God whose resurrection is at hand. The Heroes of the land are trying to prevent it, and the players must stop them using Monsters, Spells, and Relics. Killing Heroes earns players Soul Points tokens which can be spent to purchase more Monsters and Relics, but whomever has the most Soul Points at the end of the game wins. Players must choose to either spend Soul Points and improve their engine or horde them to try and win.

The game takes place on a tile-based board, with entry points for Heroes and the Altar (i.e. the "tower" players must defend) at the center. There are 3 types of cards: Hero cards (representing the heroes players must kill), Spell cards (single-use effects played from a player's hand that mostly affect the board state, such as "move any Monster or Hero 1 space" or "rotate any tile"), and Boon cards (Monsters and Relics that players can purchase using Soul Points). Purchased Monsters are set in card stands and placed on the Altar tile, which players must move around the board and attack Heroes. Purchased Relics cards are placed face up in front of the player and provide constant benefits, such as drawing a Spell card at the start of a round or making all of your Monsters slightly stronger.

Monster and Heroes have 3 stats: Strength (combat ability), Speed (how many spaces they move), and Health (how much damage they take before they die).

A game round consists of 2 Phases: the Minion (Player) Phase and the Hero Phase.

At the start of the Minion Phase, if a player has more Monsters than Activation Tokens, they gain Activation tokens until it is equal to the number Monsters they control. Activation Tokens are used to move Monsters and use some of their special abilities. Players take turns of 2 Actions each, where an Action is one of the following:

  • Play a Spell card from their hand
  • Spend an Activation Token to activate (move and attack) a Monster they control
  • Perform an Action ability stated on a Boon card (many of which require spending Activation tokens, or can only be used once per game round)
  • Sacrifice Soul Point tokens to acquire a Monster or Relic from some common pool. Players can optionally sacrifice their own Boon and Spell cards for more Soul Points, but those can only be used to acquire Boons and do not count towards winning the game.
  • End their round. Their turn ends immediately and can take no more turns for the rest of the round, but if they are not the last player to do so, they may draw a Spell card from the deck.

Once all players choose to end their round, if goes to the Hero Phase, where each Hero on the board tries to move closer to the Altar tile in the center and fight monsters along the way. If any Hero reaches the Altar tile, the game ends and everyone loses. If a Hero is killed during the Minion Phase, they are replaced with a new Hero at the end of the Hero Phase.

Combat is very simple, consisting of an Attacker and a Defender. Each side takes their Strength, adds any bonuses, and rolls a D6. If the Attacker has a higher total, the Defender takes 1 damage. Otherwise, nothing happens. Heroes and Monsters may have context-specific bonuses on their cards, and gain a +1 bonus for each friendly piece on the same space. All Heroes are friendly with each other, and all Monsters are friendly with each other, regardless of who controls them (making it easy for players to horn in on each other's kills). Initially Monsters can only attack Heroes, but there could be a cut-throat variant where Monsters can attack each other and only give each other bonuses if their controlling player allows it.

That's pretty much the entire game. I'm now trying to think of ways for players to build their engines. The main part of the game is in the combat, since players need to kill Heroes to get Soul Point tokens, which means acquiring Monsters and making them stronger. Spell cards can help move Heroes and Monsters into position, and Relics have a variety of secondary effects.

For engine-building, I figure there could be things like Relics and Monsters that let you draw extra Spell cards or increase your hand limit, and Monsters that become stronger with more Spell cards or Relics that increase the potency of Spells. Another idea are Monsters that become more powerful when the player has more Activation Tokens, and Monsters/Spells/Relics that increase the number a player has.

I had originally planned on there being a few "types" of Monsters, where each type has a particular engine-building theme to it. Heroes and Monsters could also have abilities based on those types (e.g. Hero gets +1 Strength when fighting Undead Monsters, or a Monster gains +1 Strength for each Arcane Monster you control).

Any other ideas?

questccg
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Just an idea

I was thinking about how the Heroes try to capture the altar. This should not be a *simple* thing like land on the square and the game is over...

Specifically I was thinking that there should be a sense of URGENCY in the game... My idea goes a little like this:

-At first each player has a couple of monsters and very few heroes show up at the alter.
-As the game continues the number of heroes ramps up (obviously the amount of monster also increases).
-The game continues ... past some victory point (at this time I don't know how to achieve a victory) but a SURGE of heroes come (making it tough for players to defeat the onslaught).
-The game ends when too many heroes arrive and defeat all the monsters.

I am trying to remember a game I played which was co-op: it was about the spread of disease around the world. Basically the game gets more and more difficult to play making it impossible to win after some point. But players don't know this - they are too busy trying to avoid a world wide epidemic.

Many people enjoy playing that game - even though often the players lose. It is rare to actually win the game - because this must happen early on or the epidemic will spread around the world.

So perhaps there can be Cities around the alter from which new heroes arise. And just like in the epidemic game, when a hero SUCCESSFULLY RAIDS the alter - that creates a boom in that city - such that more people are inspired and therefore more heroes come out of the wood works...

You could make the altar in a dangerous place such as an extinct volcano. The players are trying to summon the demon held within - while the heroes coming from the cities around the board are trying to prevent it.

The idea about raiding is that heroes from a city (a specific color) make for more heroes... This is how the build up starts. I hope you an understand what I am trying to express:

Just because a hero is successful doesn't mean it's the end of the game...

What it does mean is that there will be EVEN MORE heroes coming from that city the next round...

Anyways things for you to think about. I like the concept.

ninjaneer
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That's interesting. For

That's interesting.

For starters, I wasn't even thinking of the board as some overworld map; I thought of it as a crypt/labryinth that Heroes must navigate. On the Hero Phase, each Hero would take the shortest path to the Altar tile, and players could delay their arrival by moving the Hero or re-arranging the tiles and put them on a different path. Granted, using an Overworld map could work effectively the same way, where the "walls" are actually impassable terrain, such as mountains or dense forest of something. That could open up abilities based on the particular terrain represented by a tile (desert vs plains vs forest, etc.).

I really like the idea that just having a Hero on the Altar tile doesn't end the game. Maybe having a number of Heroes equal to the number of players (which is at least 2) does end it. This way when one Hero reaches the Altar, there's massive pressure to get rid of them, but since you only need Heroes on the tile to lose, players can't simply stack all of their Monsters on that tile to prevent a loss. I had already intended to increase the number of Heroes based on the number of players, so this fits nicely.

I had toyed around with the idea of multiple Heroes from the same origin at the same time. I had also planned on Heroes of different levels, where higher levels mean stronger Heroes but bigger rewards. Maybe all Heroes are level 1 to being with, but as soon as a Hero makes it onto the Altar, it summons the next higher level of Hero?

More things to think about, but none actually answering my original question of how players build their engine. Thanks for the input though!

questccg
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Pandemic

questccg wrote:
I am trying to remember a game I played which was co-op: it was about the spread of disease around the world. Basically the game gets more and more difficult to play making it impossible to win after some point. But players don't know this - they are too busy trying to avoid a world wide epidemic.

I have done some searching (using Google) and after finding some pictures, the game I was talking about is called "Pandemic". Here is the link to BGG at a sample picture of the actual game: http://boardgamegeek.com/image/554871/pandemic

This game was cool to play - but like I said by the game's design USUALLY players LOSE the game (and the world get infected with the four diseases).

Again - I know this has little to do with your question - I just wanted to highlight the sense of urgency (in a co-op game) that I have already played... And really ENJOYED (because the sense of urgency was there).

questccg
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Urgent Urgent Emergency - Foreigner

ninjaneer wrote:
Granted, using an Overworld map could work effectively the same way, where the "walls" are actually impassable terrain, such as mountains or dense forest of something. That could open up abilities based on the particular terrain represented by a tile (desert vs plains vs forest, etc.).

You could have roads interconnecting cities. When a Hero goes into a city, maybe he like picks up ANOTHER Hero... And then you could have Parties vs. a Group of Monsters.

Note: It could be a random element: gain a party member, gain equipment (tougher to battle) , etc.

So early on Heroes only appear in the cities around the Tower - but as the game progresses, Heroes come from further and further away (and using the city effect mentioned) and bring a party that is stronger and has more heroes.

So a city which is 5 cities away from the Tower, would mean it COULD (not always) bring together a *party* with 5 Heroes... Could be the toughest thing to beat and would require a large group of monster to defeat the party.

Again just ideas - I'm just trying to find a mechanic that brings the sense of URGENCY to your game....

Note: The BEST part of this is player's can WATCH it happen and can only do their best to try to stop the heroes...

questccg
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Game Markers - for scoring

ninjaneer wrote:
I really like the idea that just having a Hero on the Altar tile doesn't end the game.

Have you thought about not worrying about Heroes reaching their goal?

For example, each time a *White* hero reaches the goal, player's get a *White Wooden Cube* (early on in the game). What this does is SPAWN a 2nd *White* hero elsewhere on the board.

If a PARTY (Red-Green-Blue) reaches the goal, player's get a *Red*, *Green* and *Blue* wooden cubes which causes THREE (3) Heroes to SPAWN on the NEXT turn! And MAYBE you only spawn 1 MONSTER (3 vs. 1).

That could REALLY create the sense of URGENCY!

Each time a hero (or party) reaches their goal, you also get a game MARKER (with values like 1, 2 ... up to 5). At the end of the game you ADD all the game markers and that is the SCORE of the players. Players can play again and try to BEAT their BEST SCORE... This could add great replay value, if the game is FUN to play...

Note: The end game condition could be the first PARTY (of 5 Heroes) reaches their goal. But the thing is if player's are managing well to stave off the heroes, they will earn MORE points... before that party arrives. Basically in this game PLAYER'S ALWAYS LOSE THE GAME! :P You just get better scores...

ninjaneer
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More awesome advice, though I

More awesome advice, though I don't like the idea of a game where players KNOW they're going to be overwhelmed and can't do anything about it. It also doesn't fit the theme: why are players trying to gain the Dark God's favor (by collecting Soul Points) if the Dark God will just be defeated anyway?

Getting back to my original question:

Given that the core winning mechanic is Monsters fighting and defeating Heroes, players will want to bulk up their Monsters as much as possible. To that end, I was thinking that each type of Monster generally has a different way of gaining power. Arcane monsters get powers from Spell cards (e.g. "+1 STR for each Spell card in your hand" or "When you play a Spell card, move 1 space"), Undead monsters get powers from Sacrificing and/or Soul Points, etc. Not all monsters of that type would have an associated ability, but most would. Other monsters might have abilities that enable those of other monsters (e.g. "Spend an Activation token to draw a Spell card" which most Arcane monsters can then use to become stronger).

Thoughts? Ideas?

StagCutlery
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Two ideas... err, maybe three

You could go one of two ways depending on pacing.

Option 1) All players place card/token/tile in a special pile. All monsters of a specific type gain +X based on how much is in that special pile.
Ex - For every 2 cards in the Magic Creatures pile, all magic creatures gain +1 HP. For every three cards, they gain +1 ATK.

Option 2) All players place card/token/tile in a special pile. One player may spend from that pile to upgrade a type of monster.
Ex - The players have built up 5 tokens in "The Cauldron" (the magic-based creature pool). A player can spend two tokens to upgrade a Minor Slime to a Major Slime, or four tokens to upgrade a Minor Homunculus to a Major one.

Of the two, I prefer the second option because while both are beneficial to the group, the second options encourages the players to discuss options rather than just flatly announcing benefits.

You could even mix both together...
Option 3) Consider this:
Pile 1 - Summoner Strength (1-5 chits): Each chit adds +1 HP to all monsters.
Pile 2 - The Cauldron (1-5 spell cards): As Above.
Pile 3 - The Graveyard (1-5 monster tiles): Tiles spent can upgrade Undead monsters.
Pile 4 - The Pikes (1-5 hero tiles): Tiles spent can upgrade Bloodlust monsters.

eviljohs
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like the idea.

I love tower defense games. The concept is similar to Dungeon Keeper. An old computer game. Look it up. It may very well give you some ideas. I almost didn't read the thread because it had the word synergy.

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