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Got redirected by a couple companies on my game design.

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Fury-Justice
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I went and tried to mail wizards of the coast about my game and if I could use some certain components of theirs in mine. I was told they only work with professionals. I just recently mailed a potential prototyping company some questions on what I would need to work with them on creating a prototype. The reply was vague and brief with the final sentence leading me back here. They referred me to a couple web pages gamecrafter and another on selling art.

I don't know, it may just be me, but are they turning me down without thinking me through? It makes me feel like the email wasn't read. The first was very short, the second was quite long. I explicitly told him the second time a lot so he would know about my game, as to not make the same mistake as first time. Basically was the same reply.

So I came back here, any advice? Would it be wise to attempt creating the prototype myself? Would the publishers only accept professionally made prototypes? I'd think especially playtested ones.

I said I make somewhat low quality art in the second email to Blue Panther. But it isn't really bad. They said they don't do art with emphasis in the email. I can draw pretty good. I think all they'd have to do is color in or rehash it. Unless it is they need a very well designed piece of art like something from dungeons and dragons. I'm not sure just how good my art had to be.

Any suggestions? I can't really seem to get any playtesters. This company said they had "a destructive set of playtesters". I don't know what that means other then I might've had it playtested.

As far as the rules go, I know them by heart. Making a pamphlet would probably be easy. I'm not sure about a book yet. I've been over the rules again and again. I've been working on this game for up to 10 years.

I'm not really entirely sure what to do other than post here. Seems like I exhausted my resources. Though I probably won't give up easily.

I don't know if anyone here has seen my art but it shows pretty clearly and is visible. I can't really pose or put them into a running stance very easily. But maybe if they stand on a rock or something it looks halfway decent. I can do the front and back okay. I haven't really done the sides much. As i think the sides are fail with me.

The Chaz
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Lots to cover...

Fury-Justice wrote:
I went and tried to mail wizards of the coast about my game and if I could use some certain components of theirs in mine. I was told they only work with professionals.

Right. There are certain companies that operate on such a high level, that you need an agent to get their ear.
But don't hire an agent - you are a ways off from needing one, as I'll explain below.

Quote:
I just recently mailed a potential prototyping company some questions on what I would need to work with them on creating a prototype...

"Creating a prototype" means "emailing an arts and crafts shop several high quality files that YOU created". Basically. I don't know what you're trying to achieve by having a prototype made by someone else - that sounds strange, but I guess my confusion comes from me not knowing if you've even made a first prototype. More on that below.

Quote:

I don't know, it may just be me, but are they turning me down without thinking me through?

They are turning you down because you haven't thought this through (in the correct way).

Quote:
It makes me feel like the email wasn't read. The first was very short, the second was quite long. I explicitly told him the second time a lot so he would know about my game, as to not make the same mistake as first time. Basically was the same reply.

Which email are you talking about? You absolutely aren't going to get through to WotC.
If you mean the prototype company, I would not be surprised if they are thinking the same thing about you (not reading their emails)!
Do you have files that you would like professionally printed and glued onto chipboard, laser cut, etc?
If not, do everyone a favor and quit emailing these folks. Tough talk, but it needs to be said.

Quote:

So I came back here, any advice? Would it be wise to attempt creating the prototype myself? Would the publishers only accept professionally made prototypes? I'd think especially playtested ones.

What do you mean by "the" prototype? I guess the most important question is:

"HAS ANYONE PLAYED YOUR GAME?"
Seriously. Has anyone played your game? Under what circumstances? What craft-work did you do to facilitate this? Handwritten things on paper... maybe some printing and gluing, cutting...? Walk us through the prototype that you have (i.e. the physical version of the game that you are using to play the game).

Quote:

I said I make somewhat low quality art in the second email to Blue Panther. But it isn't really bad. They said they don't do art with emphasis in the email.

You don't need art. You need a game.
If you are trying to create the files necessary for a professional printer to translate into a physical game (prototype), then you need graphic design/layout. And honestly, if you had those skills, you wouldn't be using the word "art" in this way. So all the more reason to quit emailing these guys.

Quote:

I can draw pretty good. I think all they'd have to do is color in or rehash it. Unless it is they need a very well designed piece of art like something from dungeons and dragons. I'm not sure just how good my art had to be.

Let's stop talking about art. You need a playable game.

Quote:

Any suggestions? I can't really seem to get any playtesters.

So how many people have played your game again? And under what circumstance?

Quote:
This company said they had "a destructive set of playtesters". I don't know what that means other then I might've had it playtested.

That means that their playtesters are going to put your game through the fire and see what remains. It's a tough process! But you need a game, and I'm starting to think you don't have one (not in the sense that you're making up this story, but rather that you haven't met certain criteria for what a game *IS*).

Quote:

As far as the rules go, I know them by heart. Making a pamphlet would probably be easy. I'm not sure about a book yet. I've been over the rules again and again. I've been working on this game for up to 10 years.

Make the rule book. Or pamphlet. Or whatever.
But seriously, if you don't have a rule book, then it's just thoughts in your head. If every thought in my head were a game (hell, if every google folder dedicated to a different "Game idea" were a game)... I'd have my secretary write this reply to you instead of typing it myself!

Quote:

I'm not really entirely sure what to do other than post here. Seems like I exhausted my resources. Though I probably won't give up easily.

Don't give up! If you've made it this far, you are probably mad, discouraged, and bewildered. Some of that is necessary, because you are waaaaaaay off the path.
But get on the path. We'll help you!

Read the threads "stickied" at the top: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/26/boardgamegeek/board-game-design

Quote:

I don't know if anyone here has seen my art but it shows pretty clearly and is visible. I can't really pose or put them into a running stance very easily. But maybe if they stand on a rock or something it looks halfway decent. I can do the front and back okay. I haven't really done the sides much. As i think the sides are fail with me.

Enough with the art!

McTeddy
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Welcome to the real world.

Welcome to the real world. Things aren't always decent and fair, but it's part of life.

Large companies like Fantasy Flight, WOTC, and Games Workshop won't read your emails for legal purposes. Even as a small-time professional designer, they won't even talk to me. They rely on the small group of people they know/own.

- - -

Realistically, if you can't find play-testers... I'd advise you against marketing this yourself. The internet has trained us to believe that "If you build it, they will come..." but it's not true.

I'd recommend you start looking into smaller publishers. They only require a simple prototype to prove the gameplay.

They'll cover the artwork, they'll cover the marketing and they'll give you a professional eye on how to do this. They'll also be the one's spending the money on manufacturing the game cutting back on your own risks.

Also... I'd recommend you find a local game store and start asking people to play-test. Your art, manufacturing and everything else is useless before you have a game that plays well.

Fury-Justice
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Ok...

I made my game is what I said by I know it by heart. If it's paperwork they want then I don't know where to send it. As far as going to the local shop goes they told me I'm best off making a prototype then mailing it to a publisher.

I have already posted here about two years ago.

I have a perfectly good game made up, there ARE rules. You never really considered that in my post. I just didn't post every detail. If you're asking me to put it on this page, then the point is first of all it wouldn't fit, and second of all I have trouble using the link html code. I don't know how to link things very well. I don't even have access to somewhere to link them to.

Ok so basically I guess I should make the prototype myself. Then fine, I can do that.

I have plenty of 'paperwork' and like i was trying to say is, what exactly is a prototype made of? If I'm going to make one myself then I need to know that fact.

Fact is, I never really tried to offend anyone, I'm not going to send another email is obvious to me. I didn't even send one for years.

I'm not going to get any playtesters here, or anywhere but a webpage or company. I don't have any friends, I'm not going to have someone to playtest it.

If basically both of you are implying mailing a prototype creation company something other than questions on what I need to make the prototype is dumb then I fail to see your point.

As far as the previous company was 'sure that was dumb of me!', but it could've worked and did work cause they said they only talk to professionals. I learnt that anyways.

How much does it cost for an agent, and where can I find one?

I really don't think I can fit the rules in on a forum, it'd be rude to post that much information. Is there another outlet for this?

let-off studios
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My suggestions

Hey there... Breaking into this business seems like a tremendous challenge. Here are some thoughts that may help you.

Type up your rules into a computer. Transfer it all into a PDF file. You can do this with Open Office, which is a no-cost, open-source office suite program for Windows, Mac, and *nix machines.

www.openoffice.org

Secondly, visit The Game Crafter, and see what they have to offer in terms of game components. They have a lot of stuff available for you: game boards of various sizes, tiles, chits, dice, etc. It costs you nothing to create an account there.

www.thegamecrafter.com

Transfer all your materials to The Game Crafter as a game project. Be sure to include the PDF of the rules. Order your game project, and send it to yourself. A handful of weeks later, you'll have a hard copy of your game that you can show to anyone, as well as a place to make multiple copies of it should you want to send it to others. Keep in mind you do not have to publish your game on The Game Crafter's online store in order to make it and have it manufactured, but you're welcome to (and just may end up with people who buy it and will offer you feedback).

At this point in the process, the gates are wide open. Here are a few options:
- Contact people you know and see if they're interested in playing your game, and you ask for specific feedback.
- Check online networking sites like Meetup (www.meetup.com) and see if there are local game groups where you live to see if they want to playtest your game with you.
- Do you have access to a video camera? If so you may want to create a how-to-play video of your game, and then post it on YouTube. Again, there is no cost to you to create an account. You can use this video as a reference for future playtesters and publishers.
- Compose a cover letter and sell sheet and send it to a couple game companies that might be interested in publishing your game. Which companies might be interested in publishing your current prototype? Check here, for starters:

http://www.bgdf.com/forum/archive/archive-game-creation/game-publication...

Hopefully this is helpful. The main idea here is to have a hard copy of everything so you can share it with others - ideally, without you physically being there to explain everything about it. If you can communicate your game entirely without verbal clarification from you, then I'd say you're in much better shape.

Good luck to you! :)

The Chaz
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Good Advice

"Let-off studios" - solid advice. We'll see how much sticks.

@OP - I know you have a game, in a certain sense.
I am challenging you to make it MORE of a game. First step - rules.
Or first step - get a physical copy that SOMEONE can play.

Either way, take the next step.

I'm sorry to hear that you don't have any friends. Not sure what else to say, but I feel for you.

As for "my rules are too long", and the like -
Just post them! Make it a "blog" or "journal" post. I'm not sure which is better (or even the differences!), but one of those should be fine.

Or just a main thread. I personally don't care. "Too long" is just a pretext. Get it written and post it somewhere! You could also create a thread on BGG http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/1530033/boardgamegeek/works-in-progress

X3M
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The frustration, right?

I know how frustrating it can be. Getting a game on the market. I almost quit twice. I am working 5 years on mine. And I only have 1 to 3 hours a week to truly work on my game. Which mostly exists out of reviewing play tests and calculations.

Listen to the guys that reacted to your thread. They know what they are doing.

***

I think this is why the company rejected you:

You have an idea. Notching more, notching less.
How the game works is just a summary that you have described to them. Even if you had every little detail down to the dot.

You need a rulebook.
You need a prototype.
You don't need art.

***

I got a working prototype (in year 2).
no arts,
no prints,
just cut out paper,
some lines,
some colour (year 3),
and words. WORDS.
My Sniper is literally called, "Sniper" on the board.

And after that, I needed to change the game. A lot! Really a lot!
So, an idea is just an idea, and this in your head is not a game. Make a print and play. And print and play it.

Even if you are testing it yourself, you only can do tests with a complete prototype. You can't test an idea in your head. Even if the maths works according to calculations that you have done over and over (and so did I). It doesn't work that way for other people.

When I look back at what happened to me, I have to laugh:
I had an idea...
Created a prototype on just paper with pencil.
I had to change the game.
Then after adding colors, I got play testers. My personal friends.
I had to change the game.
Now I finally have notching more to add or reduce.
Rule book! Hey, that doesn't work, so...
Change the game.
Time for art. Guess what...
I had to change the game.
I had to change the game.
I had to change the game. Ugggh! I hate doing art. No one reacted to those Second Run hexagons.
Play testststs again.
Change the gamememe again.

There is no way that I will contact a company if I am not ABSOLUTELY sure that my game is complete. And my first email ever would be;
Hello,
I got this (rule book),
and this (complete prototype, no art, maybe hand drawn pictures scanned in).
PRINT and PLAY!!!
Dear sir, what else do I need to add? (Well I guess, those cute 2x2cm whiteboards + markers :) )

Nah! Once completed completely. I will completely post it here. And then.... guess what....
I will need to change the game :D I just know it.

Once you have a print and play. Post it here. Plenty of play testers here. Your game doesn't need to be appealing for the eye's, but it has to be for the mind.

I love it, that I see my friends thinking out strategies during the play tests. They don't look at the board. They actually grab their chin and think. Pondering... Imagination is your ally. All you need to do is convey it to others.
Not with an idea.
But with a prototype that is print and play.
So that they can track the game.

And never, ever, give up.
Just take advice from others.
And one more advice, that I myself should follow. Don't await others, keep going yourself. Others will not make the game for you. They only give advice and JUST IDEA'S for you to work on. Once you are done, they will play the game.

laperen
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Do you have any board-game

Do you have any board-game hobbyist groups or shops near your home? You probably will find better help there by mingling with even the customers than here.

Honestly you need some basics in this field before you even attempt something like this, and only face to face help will give you those basics. No amount of advice and services is gonna help you at the state you are in.

Besides, that will allow you to make some friends and get some player-testers.

i do not have a board-game group, I'm still studying, but a quick Google search with the terms "board-game groups near you", i found this site:
http://board-games.meetup.com/

Fury-Justice
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Thank you.

Although I still don't understand what a prototype is made out of, I understand and have read everything else you have written and is all right. I guess I should've thought a little bit more before emailing them.

At any rate, I will definately look into making a PDF file. A while back I had trouble linking here but evidentally there is now a button called 'attachments' here I didn't see that at first.

As far as blog posts go, that's smart, I guess I could put tidbits here and there and try to explain as best as possible. I'm not entirely sure what to do after that point. Just make a thread and ask people to look at it?

I apologize for coming on aggressive. I didn't mean to hurt bgdf's reputation either. I simply am confused on what to do and asked for some help. Evidentally, it would be wiser to have just come back here first for information.

I am a bit frusterated. I'll get over it. Kinda tired today when I posted had to do it when it was on my mind. Thanks again. I will give all your wonderful corrections some serious thinking attention.

Fury-Justice
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On my game...

It is a simple to start but has some more demanding rules so I'm not sure whether or not a small company would accept the idea in the long run. It seems to be getting more and more complex and I probably figure playtesters will become a must if I'm going to go that route.

I wonder if it's just best to take my sweet time in developing and just wait it out. I guess my focus is now to work on the rule book. (I have sort of been planning on making this, just working out the gloss on the draft of the gameplay now.)

Most of the last two years have gone into developing the game format. I just wasn't intelligent enough to get that it wasn't enough. Honestly, I've worked and reworked and studied hard. There's always more you can do, however.

As far as if the game could work goes, I guess I'll never know until I get more proof of my game's validity.

P.S. I really didn't realise art was not important part of the game, if that be the case, I can stop focusing on that it wasted a lot of my time learning art. It did help me create a storyline though.

Fury-Justice
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The tabletop game shop.

http://www.alphaomegacandg.com/ there is one here. I found that out a year or more ago. I did play there regularly and I think going back there and socializing would help. Maybe I could develop a friendly attitude with some of the customers and ask them to playtest my game. Meanwhile I could look over games that people made in the first place and think over my game. Honestly, I have a lot of trouble being a go-getter. I doubt people would like my game upfront. No matter how great I think it is... other people are the reason I'm trying to make the game. I guess I should think this over as I'm not sure it'd work.

Inquisibot
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In regards to a prototype

Some previous posters have already described prototypes, but I'll try to clarify for you if I can.

I like to break it down into 3 stages a prototype can be in. Starting with the first and becoming more refined as play tests are done and problems are solved. These are not official categories, but I find it easier to explain them in stages.

The first stage is an Initial Prototype:

The essence of an Initial Prototype is functioning version of your game made with simple components. All you want to do is make sure your mechanics work.

Components in prototypes are usually anything you can get your hands on. Examples being: paper, sticky notes, dice, tokens, stickers, card board, etc.

Basic craft supplies, or even components borrowed from existing games, can be used in your prototype to represent the pieces you will need to play your game. These prototypes are usually for internal testing and refinement. You can show these publicly, but you will usually have to do a lot of hands on explaining.

The second stage is a Refined Prototype. You will be using slightly better components to better help infuse theme into your game.

Components will now include art, doesn't have to be good, but enough to help distinguish piece A from piece B. Your components will be slightly better quality. So instead of slips of paper with scribbled notes on it, it could be a printed piece of paper, with typed notes. You may use coloured construction paper now, slightly better tokens, and so on.

Refined Prototypes are better for showing your game to the public. You have infused theme with basic images and/or text, and it's easier to get new players into the game as the components are of a slightly better quality, making it easier to understand objectives and goals. Most often these types of prototypes are used for public play testing, and they can be used to show potential publishers. You will go through a few versions of this before you settle on a final design.

The last stage is a Final Prototype. This is as far as you can personally take your game without heavily investing. You have colour art, printed cards, and complete components. The game isn't changing thematically or mechanically at this point, but rather the quality of the components are the furthest you can go. These prototypes, while not usually necessary are great for showing what the final game could look like. Please note, don't invest too heavily in art or the design, because if a publisher is interested they may take over and change those aspects.

These are not any hard or fast rules about prototypes, but it's a good baseline for understanding them. I am in a public playtest of my game currently, so if you want to see what a refined prototype can look like, feel free to check out my journal post.

Fury-Justice
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Prototyping model.

I watched inquisibot's post and watched a youtube video. That was very informative. I see what must be done now in that area.

Fury-Justice
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A question about playtesting...

Here is a site from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playtest -- at the bottom it says something about disadvantages of playtesting. If I upload my information here, does that mean my game could be in trouble? I don't want to be stiff about this any longer. I just figure it'd be helpful to know if that information is protected or not. Is it a risk to make a pdf file?

Fury-Justice
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One more question I can think of.

I was initially developing a board game out of my rule system I use. The game is getting more complicated in my opinion.

I'm having trouble putting this into words but I have made a game system and many renditions of the game over fantasy, sci-fi, and hybrid between the two. I have a bundle of titles that I could probably reformat into a single game title.

Obviously that could take me some time to do.

So my question is what should my game be: board game material or pen-and-paper material to start out? Does it even matter? Will it be harder to market a pen-and-paper RPG? I'm just not sure about the entire subject really. Would it be simpler just to have a board game in the first place? Would play testers be more attracted to a board game? Is it less expensive to have a board game?

It is naturally a RPG type game seemingly. If I blog I might be able to explain more of this.

My rules have been ever-changing and I haven't really sat down and tried to write it into a written format yet.

You see, I'm really trying hard at making the rules easier to play and noticeable on my own, and it still could use a little less confusion so writing it now might not be such a good idea.

I imagine the pdf is what I want to start with.

It is going to become a hybrid game. (Basically a mix of sci-fi and fantasy elements. Mainly, guns and magical powers.)

Some Random Dude
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Some more tips

Just to echo everything that has been said already, and address a couple new concerns you've mentioned:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqqYxa3vTnU

Not sure how much research you've done on the subject, or games in general, but I've gotten my "designer bug" from watching/listening to The Dice Tower, and I owe them a lot (even though I've never actually released anything). The youtube video above is titled "Top Ten Tips for Game Designers".

My number 1 piece of advice? Relax. The more stressed out you get, the more mistakes you'll make. If you're designing a game, it's probably because you love games. Enjoy it.

And as for posting too much on this board, I doubt anyone minds. I've started two threads to two different games of mine, and I put almost the entire rulebook for each one.

Bawa
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Choose

@OP:
You say you haven't sat down and written the rules out. I'm not surprised:

It seems you haven't made a choice about what your game is!

It's not 'should I make an RPG or boardgame', but what do you want the game to be? And then make that. It gives focus to writing rules, making a prototype and explaining what the game 'is', not what the game is about. That's just theme. Theme is important (often, not always) but not the game.

Try and write down what you want the game to be in one sentence. Make an elevator pitch: next time you have 10 seconds to tell someone about your game, let them know in one sentence what they can expect from it.

Possibly you have been writing a lot about a game world, a setting for a game. That often includes rules without being a complete game. If you like building a world or setting, consider making a sourcebook!

Whatever you choose, don't put off writing things down. You want things clear in your head before writing, it doesn't work like that. You get focus by writing and find out true clarity only then. A mind has a way of making it look good, the physical world gives you cold truth. You have to get through that at some point to get published.

Good luck on your project.

larienna
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To learn more about the

To learn more about the design and publishing process. You Might want to take a look at this book:

--------------------------------

Tinsman, Brian
The Game Inventor's Guidebook: how to invent and sell board games, card games, role-playing games & everything in between! / Brian Tinsman.- 2nd Edition.- Garden City, NY: Morgan James ,c2008.

263 p.:Partially illustrated; 23 cm

Includes list of publishers, brokers, website, events, sample letters and license agreement.

ISBN 978-1-60037-447-0

------------------------------------

I already wrote a summary that can be found here:

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/index.php?n=DesignBook.Book-GameInventors...

It will not replace the book, but could give you a good idea of what is talked about. It's a pretty cheap and small book, you might be able to get it at the library.

------------------------------------

I read the replies in diagonal, but one thing that hit me is that you cannot just remember rules by heart. Rules is like the core of your work. Having no rule book like like having a movie idea without a script. It's simply not a movie yet. Even very simple games are written as soon as possible after a few playtest.

X3M
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What Larienna said about

What Larienna said about rules is true.

During the many play tests and change of rules. I didn't always change them in the manual. The result was that after a while, we forgot an important rule. And what it precisely had to be. So that part had to be done over again.

And you don't have to write the rules down in one go. You can do it in parts.

A part has to be understandable and preferable standing on its own. In other words, it could be part of any manual.

Then there is a little guide rule in the writing: The bigger a part is, the less it will be understanding for others. I have a lot of trouble in this area. So if I see a part that is too big. I try to cut it down to smaller parts.

***

Having a manual also reflects on the complexity of a game. A manual too big might have big parts and might be very complex. Then there are less people who understand the game. And less people who will/want to play the game.

For example, I don't explain to players how I got to the statistics of my units. I simply give the statistics. (For example: Costs is 450, Armor is 9, Damage is 36)
It has no use to write 10 pages on how I calculated it all. Just 1 page in what they are for each unit and how to use the numbers.
And its up to them to play the game. And then they find out what the statistics really mean.

Now those 10 pages, I do have them. And a part of it is posted on this forum. But I am going to use them for myself. A rulebook for the designer self, if you will. You might want to track that too.

larienna
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Quote:A part has to be

Quote:
A part has to be understandable and preferable standing on its own. In other words, it could be part of any manual.

The rule book "while you design" is not a beautiful rulebook with all the illustrations. It's a rule book to make sure you do not get lost in your own rules.

In early design, it's possible that your rule book is more like a list of notes with turn order summary that you know how to use to play your game, but that anybody else won't be able to read.

When you game get solid after numerous iteration you can now invest more time on your rulebook to make it readable by others.

Rule book could also be a consolidation of your notes. I write a lot of notes on a piece of paper especially when I am searching for an idea or solution. I will rarely be able to find any informaiton later within those notes.

So instead, I transcript in rules the new findings I made in my notes that those ideas and updates gets integrated in the rules. Then I add an IR (In Rules) Icon on my note page to indicate that all the new ideas on this page are in the rules.

I even decided to link forum threads I make with my projects because sometime I get good ideas from those thread and forget to add them to the rules, or have no notes about it. So this way I do not lose access to the information.

Even recently after a few thread discussion, I might be compelled to write a rule book after the ideas I received. It also makes it clearer in my mind once things has been written down.

So the "in design" rulebook is extremely important. Especially if you jump from a design to another (which you should do) or if you have a short memory like me. I have successfully surprised my self be re-reading my own rulebooks or notes.

So everything not written is lost.

McTeddy
Offline
Joined: 11/19/2012
I don't actually write

I don't actually write ANYTHING down until I have a decent amount of playtesting with others.

The human brain is full of illogical tendencies that will cause us to "grow attached" to our own creations. The more time and effort we put in... the more biased we become.

During the early stages, I'll do everything to the bare minimum that I need to play. Index cards with handwritten powers, board that is hand drawn on lined paper and whatever is within reach for counters.
Even things like character powers that stay the same throughout the game are likely to not be written down.

Only once it's reached a point that other people tell me that it's a good game do I start writing things down.

- - -

Another thing to keep in mind is that the longer and more complex your rules are... the fewer people are going to put in the effort to play it.

While this might be acceptable depending on your desires... it's something that I always consider.

Ecarots
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Joined: 08/23/2013
another playtesting source

Here is a great source for playtesting:

there are several around the country

http://www.protospiel.org/index.html

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