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"Perceived" value vs. "Monetary" value

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Tue, 12/15/2020 - 01:08
questccg
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I didn't post this topic thinking I would get a ton of responses ... Instead I'd be happy with a few comments from our regulars (what are their thoughts on a matter which is of importance to me).

questccg wrote:
If you could purchase a Booster Pack with 15 cards of which 14 of them have the potential of being a "rare" card, what would be the "perceived" value of this Pack???

I know the "Monetary" value that I have for the Pack is $14.99 USD (MSRP). And if you do the direct math, it's about $1.00 USD per card. I'm planning over the next couple days to "re-work" the distribution. Like previously I had a value of "3" which meant each Deck would get "3" of these cards. No longer is that accurate, because of probabilities ... "3" is not necessarily the same odds as "uncommon" and "rare" cards in the same "series".

What is the "Perceived" value of such a Pack??? What I mean is from a "market" perspective what do you think such a Pack will be worth. Are there some RULES for this? Like for every "common" card, an "uncommon" is worth 2x and a "rare" is worth 4x?! Have any of you had experience tinkering with this???

If a "rare" is worth 4x, that means that means the Deck could be worth $57.00 USD (14 x 4 + 1 = 57).

This doesn't seem ABNORMAL to me. You're paying more than a Magic pack which is about $4.99 to $7.99 USD. But at the same time, you're getting much better odds of getting "more valued" content.

Anyone have any thoughts about this??? Would really like to get some opinions from our "regulars"... Because many of you have played Magic and have insight into the aftermarket that I do not... Even at a general level.

Please feel free to post/share your impressions and thoughts. Thanks.

Note #1: And I know $14.99 USD (MSRP) is a bit high. But I will selling those SAME packs for $9.99 USD (33% off) during the KS. So it will be very worthwhile to buy a few "extra" packs just for the heck of it... If you have a couple "bucks" available to spend (at that time).

Again ... I'm just saying what current plans are. Offering the KS Backers a discount is certainly of "value" to them and IF you can get off with a $57 Pack ... Well then congrats to you. Listen, I don't have average price per booster (with the card distribution, etc.) but what I have seen is games in the $12.99 USD range for a product which "calls itself a game". So a bit more pricey (MSRP) and more affordable (KS).

I'm am definitely in the AFFORDABLE range for the KS because it is DIRECT SALES and I can afford to lower the price. It's afterwards when I am selling to STORES where the price difference is more significant because of the HIGHER COSTS to production (and the 50% retail markup).

Note #2: Ergo the discussion about what to do with a product that has too little of a COST-to-RETAIL margin. The conclusion was to sell ONLINE via Amazon.com or private website... And then I could maintain the lower of the two price points. Moot point for sure.

Note #3: If the cards had an option for a FOIL "common", that would of course increase the value greatly of the cards. So one (1) "common foil" per pack as an extra "incentive". Right now this is NOT possible, I'm just thinking ahead and wondering since I heard some "non-definite" news that FOILS were on the TODO list... And might be explored in the not-too-distant future.

If this DOES happen ... Well that would be a SUPER addition. Obviously a per "card" option is what you would be looking for... Not all cards only one (1) in my version of "excitement in a pack"! lol

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Tue, 12/15/2020 - 19:03
#1
Jay103
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I mean... it really depends

I mean...

it really depends on the perceived value of a rare card. How badly do I want to add rare cards to what I own? I don't know about the game in question, but does a rare enable something new in my game? What are the odds of getting a rare in a deck, and how many different rares are there? Is it useful to me to have more than one of a particular rare? Etc.

Personally I'm a function-over-form guy, so I couldn't care less about foils. More cost for no benefit.

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Tue, 12/15/2020 - 20:39
#2
X3M
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Making a wild guess here of the economics

The value of a card will probably depend on the following formula:

Value=Money*Usefulness/Rarity

The usefulness is how often a player would like to use this card.
The rarity is how often a player can get this card from buying cards, later on from trading.
Money is the total money spend by the players, including inflation over time.

Usefulness can change by the designer. A card might become less useful if another stronger card can fill in the exact same role. Or more useful if a synergy with new cards is possible. Or cards are added to the game that are specifically weaker against these.

Rarity can change over time by cards getting lost.
Rarity can only become more common if the designer adds more of them in the packages.
The numbers only go up with the latter. However, you can make a card rare by simply not adding them any more, while others are still being sold.
If a card rarity goes up, so will the obtaining of this card go up. And making the card even rarer for those who don't have it yet.

Both factors can be put in percentages or numbers or whatever you see fit.
Just to keep an overview.

The usefulness will be by observing the players behavior.
The rarity is simply registering the cards. How many did you sell? And that would be the maximum.

Example:
Card A is used 50% of the time.
Card B is used 30% of the time.
Card C is used 20% of the time.

Card A has been sold 5 times.
Card B has been sold 2 times.
Card C has been sold 8 times.

The scores for these cards are:
10%, 15% and 2.5%.

So if your booster package has 15 cards like above.
And people would pay 15 USD. Then the relative value would initially be:
1.50 USD for every card A.
2.25 USD for every card B.
0.375 USD for every card C.

Now, let us assume you are not going to sell card C anymore for a while. Since people have these "a lot". And they are "useless" anyway. Yet you keep selling other cards, including A and B.
After selling a total of 150 cards, yet C is still used (aka needed) 20% of the time. The value of C has risen.

With 150 USD spend, the value of this card is also 10 time higher.
3.75 USD for every card C.
If cards are lost during the time. Let's say 2 out of 8 are lost. Then the value rises with another 33%. We get 5 USD per card C.

I don't know how big the deck is going to be. But if a certain guy manages to get his hands on all the cards of C. Then for these cards to be used 20% of the time. HE could decide to destroy a couple. In order to increase the worth of the others.

Rarity is also felt by how obtainable are the cards?
Meaning, if players would trade cards. Then a expensive card is not going to be traded. And the value of these rise faster. Often it is the "obtaining of cards" that replaces the "rarity".

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Tue, 12/15/2020 - 21:47
#3
questccg
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Let me answer Jay103's questions first...

Jay103 wrote:
Personally I'm a function-over-form guy, so I couldn't care less about foils. More cost for no benefit.

In that case, you would "strictly" speaking want the "improved" Game Tiles for future purposes (in several cases). Because they serve a "function". Let me explain.

questccg wrote:
Let's say we have a "Fighter". His STATs are selectable via a PATH: either 6 Attack, 2 Defense and 1 Loot OR 6 Attack, 3 Defense and 2 Loot. This is the "common" version of the Game Tile. The "uncommon" version adds "+1 Loot" to both PATHs (6/2/2 or 6/3/3). What this means is that when this Game Tile is DEFEATED, the "Fighter" will drop more LOOT (Crystals ergo the name "Crystal Heroes").

A "rare" Game Tile builds upon this and modifies one of other STATs (for example). So, this is all about the STATs of the Game Tiles with slight, small variations sometimes making the Game Tile more potent.

Jay103 wrote:
How badly do I want to add rare cards to what I own? I don't know about the game in question, but does a rare enable something new in my game? What are the odds of getting a rare in a deck, and how many different rares are there? Is it useful to me to have more than one of a particular rare? Etc.

So first the idea is that ALL Game Tiles have a "common", "uncommon" and "rare" version. Like I explained above, the Game Tiles have the EXACT same art ... It's just the STATs (or PATH) that is different "slightly".

For the most part, most Game Tiles are strong enough to conquer their opponents (on their own). But some Game Tiles need a BOOST (Ex-P Crystals). This is when a conquering player earns "Experience" Crystals. That player can then "unlock" BONUS abilities like a "+2 Attack" AND a "+1 Loot" (as one example). Other abilities require two (2) "Experience" and have a "+1 Defense" unlocked and then "+1 Loot" subsequently unlocked.

These STATs are "selectable". And serve as a way to IMPROVE the effectiveness of the Game Tile in question. But remember that for the most part, MOST Game Tiles are sufficiently effective enough against each other that they can conquer each other WITHOUT "Experience". Like I said I think there are only three (3) WEAKER Game Tiles that need a boost to be "competitive".

So, HOW MANY "rare" Game Tiles are there? As many "common" Game Tiles. In this first edition that would mean FIFTEEN (15) unique Game Tiles. And there would then be fifteen (15) "rare" Game Tiles you could have... But remember you can have duplicates of any Game Tile. So, your twelve (12) Game Tile Micro Deck could have TWELVE (12) "rare" Game Tiles!

The "rare" Game Tiles will hold themselves BETTER against future Game Tiles who could have STRONGER "Defense" and require HIGHER "Attack". The "Loot" is mostly how you collect Crystals to WIN the game. So, MORE Crystals means that a player can collect MORE FASTER and potentially WIN EARLIER. Generally speaking you want MORE LOOT. But not if it means compromising with lower "Defense" or "Attack".

Each Game Tile has a matching "rare" version ... Which means that there are 3x the amount of Game Tiles to collect (or 45 in the First Release).

It's not an overwhelming amount ... But enough to encourage some chasing of Game Tiles... I'm not going to say a person will buy 100 Packs. But he may buy 4 or 5 more (for example).

Anything else I can explain or add to improve your understanding???

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Tue, 12/15/2020 - 21:59
#4
questccg
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A computational model makes sense!

Ok Ramon ... You've got me hooked with this formulae for computing "value"!

Interesting... I've almost got it 100% with all the math (and odds)... The only part I am unsure about is the "2 out of 8 are lost..." How do you get 33% rise? Isn't 2 out of 8 = 25% loss? How does it become 33% loss???

Can you explain this last part just a bit clearer...?

But I get where you are going with this computation. A way to MODEL the "value" overall...

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Tue, 12/15/2020 - 22:48
#5
questccg
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Chasing rare cards... or improved stats

So maybe in reality you don't need like 10 Booster Packs to PLAY the game. You only need 2 or 4 depending on the amount of players. It's THAT SIMPLE.

But obviously it maybe worthwhile to have 3 or 4 of all of the "rare" in the first release ... In terms of having all competitive Game Tiles in your Micro Deck. As I have explained I believe that there are three (3) Game Tiles which need "Experience" to defeat other STRONGER Game Tiles.

So, maybe you would DEFINITELY want THOSE THREE (3) Game Tiles (building upon Ramon's observation as to "demand" and increased desire to have those Game Tiles). That seems logical.

Then from a PLAYER's perspective ... You may want SOME "uncommon" versions which boost part of the STATs PATH. Again not all but some. The good news is that the "uncommon" version are PARTIALLY "rare" Game Tiles. Because one HALF of the "rare" Game Tile's BOOST is present in the "uncommon" version. So sometimes, you get the better part cheaper than having to have its "rare" counterpart.

Maybe there are five (5) of those Game Tiles. "rare" or "uncommon".

Like I said, I'm doing it to build up some "surprise" when you get your Game Tiles. Will you get a bunch of amazing Game Tiles or did you luck-out and didn't get what you had hoped for.

Maybe you should buy a couple extra Packs "in-case"...! It's not about chasing ART or "rare" cards that serve NO PURPOSE. Each Game Tile has been playtested hundreds of time ("core"). I know these variants will not break the game.

Of course my issue is with TIME and more releases. The idea is that this FIRST release be sufficiently competitive it can hold its own against a newer set of Game Tiles. Since it's all STAT-based ... It will make sense to release NEWER Game Tiles that have improved STATs. And how will that affect the previous releases???

Right now that is my PRIMARY concern. This chasing is nothing like Magic. TBH I don't know what you are looking for in Magic Booster Packs. I buy pre-configured Deck (Pre-con) and try to "tweak" them with stronger variants of the cards already found in the "pre-con" deck. Like instead of Shock which deals 2 Damage. I'll swap for Lightning Bolt which deals 3 Damage... Or a Mountain vs a Duel-Land Card (Mountain and Plains). Or scrying abilities that allow you to get a better look at your Deck. Stuff like that.

I really don't know what it is I am supposed to find in Boosters??? The Black Lotus, maybe?! Why? Because it's good to resell? Or just to boast...?! I am introducing a *NEW* form of Card Chasing: game related improved cards. I've already explained some of the more sought after "rares" and how "uncommons" in other cases are "good enough"...

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Tue, 12/15/2020 - 23:14
#6
questccg
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Here's a DRAFT Game Tile Sample...

That shows you the STATs PATH (an example). This Game Tile is still experimental so there may be some "outdated" information with the tile (including the STATs themselves). It just shows you what a Game Tile looks like...

If I explain the STATs PATH:

questccg wrote:
The Wizard has an EITHER 2 Atk, 2 Dfs, 3 Loot OR 2 Atk, 3 Dfs, 5 Loot. With +1 "Experience" he benefits by a +2 Atk bonus and with +2 "Experience" he gets a +1 Dfs bonus.

With +2 "Experience" the two possibilities are: 4/3/3 or 4/4/5. To explain in a more "exposed" and concise manner.

An "uncommon" version of this Game Tile could have a "+2 Dfs Bonus" instead of a "+1 Dfs Bonus" ... And maybe the "rare" Game Tile could have a "3 Atk" for example... This is one of the weaker cards in the set... Although I must admit that this VERSION is "incorrect". The STATs are not valid. It's just a SAMPLE that I had worked on (and had handy to help explain)...

Note #1: I know the ART may be a "little" bit "cartoonish" but that's the look that my artist and I agreed to. The reason was to appeal to younger folk too... So we wanted something COOL without any "blood, guts or gore" or the more "serious" looking RPG-type art found in many card games. This is a middle ground that kids can enjoy seeing and having as cards that they can "collect" and "play" too...

Right now the first release will only include Humans and Elves. But there are a total of Nine (9) Houses. We are starting with the more GENERIC ones and then hope to move on to more "interesting" races (to allow more creative freedom in the illustration department).

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Wed, 12/16/2020 - 00:33
#7
Stormyknight1976
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Have you seen this

This game popped up on Covenant Live stream and I thought you might be interested in the price and the card set up.

The game is called Welcome To Rathe : Flesh and Blood.

https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/44041/legend-story-studios-unveils-f...

Jesse

P.S.
Scroll down the screen from the link provided to check out how the company is handling the prices for each box and booster pack.

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Wed, 12/16/2020 - 06:59
#8
X3M
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questccg wrote:Ok Ramon ...

questccg wrote:
Ok Ramon ... You've got me hooked with this formulae for computing "value"!

Interesting... I've almost got it 100% with all the math (and odds)... The only part I am unsure about is the "2 out of 8 are lost..." How do you get 33% rise? Isn't 2 out of 8 = 25% loss? How does it become 33% loss???

Can you explain this last part just a bit clearer...?

But I get where you are going with this computation. A way to MODEL the "value" overall...


6/8 is indeed -25%
8/6 however is the effect on the value, which is +33%

Sorry about going math again. It is how I see the world.

Regarding the first set of cards. You have it completely in your own hands to begin with.

The value can actually be calculated on your own assumptions.
However, there is this thing called practical balance.
And the players will slowly shift to this practical balance.

You see this a lot in RTS games. Where a tank is supposed to beat a buggy. But the buggy amass will prevent a tank from even being build. So players eventually use the buggy. The value of the tank WAS higher, costed more in the game as well. But it plumeted on most games in regards to how it is valued due to all those buggies. The thing the designer can do is reducing the game price of the tank. This will increase the usage. And thus the value.

Funny enough, this is a bit like my "choice weapons".
How to determine the value of a weapon. I need to have them exactly equal to the costs. This because the practical balance is the theoratically balance. (the benefit of playing with people that are smarter than me)

If a fault is discovered. The usage can change drastically. It can drop to 0%. And the value, well is 0 as well at that point.

So, if you have 2 cards that do the exact same thing. Yet the price is either 3 or 4. The card with a price of 4 will have 0 usage. The value will plumet towards 0.
A good thing to know is if the player base is saturated with the card that costs 3. If so, then the last usage is that picture of being a collecters item.

You might even choose to have cards included in the future that are hardly used. But are super rare. Their value might still be some to collectors. And the second factor of obtainability will come in play.

Obtainability will be determined by the player base. If one hogs up all the cards. Then the cards will rise in value.

Anyway, if you want to track your cards. You need to start a file right away when sending out the first batch.

You can have a column of theoratically value's. And then see if what the players make out of it. Have a forum alongside it. Where players can discuss on how much they think a card should be. You won't believe the huge difference between the player base and what you thought it would be. And this is all of how players perceive the game.

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Wed, 12/16/2020 - 09:54
#9
terzamossa
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my 2 cents

Hi guys,
I am not a regular yet I guess, I hope this is not considered intruding too much :)
X3M wrote lots of interesting things and there is definitely lots of value in this analysis (which can be applied to many areas of game design)...at the same time I think the simpler suggestion of Jesse might make for a more actionable target.

Cost as perceived has nothing to do with monetary value (as your title suggested as well) and up to a point I don't think it is that connected to strategical value (you were pointing out yourself you wonder why people buy MTG cards...still they do)
As Jesse pointed out, checking out costs of similar games might give you a much better idea of what is considered acceptable.

I also think a lot of the perceived value is related to how often I can play (how many other players there are around me). A strong marketing campaign might be needed. Also creating the community of players (by allowing to play online I guess, or thanks to conventions...or distributing prototypes) would be extremely useful. Also, having 100 players in the same city might be much more valuable than 500 in the world as they'd keep playing together and wanting to buy. Until the game is wide-spread a business model based on single sales including two (or more) full decks (and if want some random card to give a booster pack feel") and then adding new cards as expansions might be more suitable than trying to sell booster packs from the start. Ivion did something similar in terms of having thematic decks divided in characters (there are minis and a board so it is slightly different but the core of the game is card based)
This is on perceived value and as a disclaimer, I am absolutely no expert in TCG, no idea how hard it is to penetrate the market nor which strategies new designers use.
After the perceived value is defined, this is hopefully higher than the monetary value.
If the monetary value is higher than the perceived value, bringing that down is paramount. As you published already, you know better than me than this can only be done increasing manufacturing scale...so increasing the minimum goal for your KS might be needed. Other wise you might think of other strategies, e.g. including more tiles in a booster pack to spread the packaging and shipping cost over more tiles? Finally, a monetary cost of 15usd (which I guess means a manufacture cost of 3usd, seems to me pretty high, you might check other manufacturers)
Hope this makes some sense :)
Antonio

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Wed, 12/16/2020 - 17:17
#10
questccg
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No worries ... we are a community ... Your insight matters!

Actually everything you said sounds reasonable. The only point where you missed the mark was the COST analysis at the end. My COST in producing the packs is OVER $5.00 USD. So the $14.99 USD was more of a figure TRYING to see if "stores" could sell the product. How? Well $14.99 USD x 50% markup is $7.50 USD and that means about $2.50 USD profitability (probably closer to $2.25 USD TBH). And therefore the Packs cannot go into distribution because the MARGINS are too high.

Like I said, IF I retail the packs... I can drop the price to $9.99 USD. But then no store could re-sell the game ... Because 50% markup is higher than the cost of goods (COG) which are over the $5.00 USD mark.

In any event... This is not what is paramount. The point as you say is more about "adoption"... And in this particular case, I am SELLING the GAME... Not "booster packs". Sure I'm hoping that people (gamers) may want to spend a few dollars and buy "extra" packs too... But it's not paramount to the success of the GAME.

The point everyone needs to remember is that it is either a 2 Player Game or a 4 Player Game. And gamers will hopefully buy based on the decision on whether they feel like the game looks like FUN! So if gamers feel like the production is worthy of their investment... Well those players will have a game that they and their children may play. Remember this is also a game that is suitable for kids aged 9+. But at the same time has enough depth for Teens and Millennials that they may also want to play and follow along the journey that is this GAME.

Therefore the important thing to remember is that this is a GAME first. Not a cash-grab for more money from BOOSTERS. Sure, there is "excitement" when opening Booster Packs and the "core" game is no different. Backers will have 2 option: 1> a 2 Player Duel Game which comes with 2 Booster Packs included, one for each player 2> a 4 Multi-player Game which comes with 4 Booster Packs included, again one for each player.

Now IF you are buying this game and are primarily concern with the COST of the game... Well those two options are the minimum. Enough said, enjoy your game... BUT... If you want to cannibalize a couple Packs to try to make YOUR OWN Micro Deck ... Well maybe you may WANT to buy 2 or maybe even 5 "extra" packs to "improve" the card pool and build a CUSTOM deck.

See so there is GAME + Boosters. Nothing prohibits BOTH. And knowing what you are buying into from the very start is IMPORTANT. Like I said I don't see gamers buying 10 or more Packs like Magic. This is NOT that type of game (CCG/TGC only). It's a "core" with random packs and you can buy a bit more "for your own satisfaction and liking".

Maybe what I am going to work on next is a "DRAFT" mode.

If the "Deck Construction" was a PART of the game... This could make for a better overall game (at least once you've player a couple of matches here and there...) I definitely need to think about that. That to me may sound more REASONABLE too! And it's ONLY twelve (12) Tile Micro Decks. So twelve turns to draft a CUSTOM deck and then play afterwards...

That maybe makes much more sense... I need to ensure that the GAME is SOLID. Right now it IS. But it probably needs more APPEAL (like a draft mode) to entice people (gamers) into buying into the game.

Thanks I will continue to work on this design... Cheers!

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Wed, 12/16/2020 - 17:39
#11
questccg
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Same stuff different name and maybe different format...

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
The game is called Welcome To Rathe: Flesh and Blood.

I see the same kind of game ... With some format changes. But the game looks like "EPIC" by White Wizard Games. This looks like a myriad of other games that are "nearly identical" to games like Magic. But in this case, take a look at "EPIC": https://www.epiccardgame.com/card-gallery/

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
Scroll down the screen from the link provided to check out how the company is handling the prices for each box and booster pack.

Yes I see the difference. But I'm NOT "selling" Booster Packs. I am selling a 2 Player or 4 Player game.

Also all these game all look the SAME. Do they have an "Attack Pattern"? Do they have a "variable STAT PATH"? Is their game different from Magic or is it similar to games similar to Magic?? Is there a Tactical Layer???

To me it all looks the SAME what people are bringing to market. My game IS DIFFERENT. It's predominantly an "Area Control" game with chess-like mechanics combined with a Tactical layer. It's like NIGHT and DAY. Why is different IMPORTANT??? Because all the other game all look the same. People want GAMES that are DIFFERENT. PLAY DIFFERENT. LOOK DIFFERENT.

I'm not saying "my game is the best". No I'm just saying my game PLAYS differently and is designed differently. Anyways we'll have to see what the PLAYER think about "Crystal Heroes" (CH)...

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Wed, 12/16/2020 - 17:52
#12
terzamossa
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this cost seems way too high

Hi,
sorry to keep digging on this...my cost analysis was wrong as a 5x multiplier is considered the minimum in industry standards and it seems like you can avoid it only on KS (giving a 25/30% discount) a proper discussion on this is here https://foxtrotgames.com/2016/02/05/distribution-cash-flow-profit/
I guess you can sacrifice and go lower if you are trying to get people hooked but that's dangerous and I guess at that stage it would make sense to simply give a few dozens packages for free at a convention in a city hoping to form a community etc.
Your minimum cost really bothers me, after this I promise I'll stop posting about money and be down to game design :)
5 USD to produce one package with 15 cards is really too high (even in the case they are thick tiles and not normal cards), I must suggest again that you check with different manufacturers.
Unless maybe you are including all the shipment/taxes? But even then. It seems to me like you'd get a better price from makeplayingcards.com (which I used in the past to prototype a few decks but which probably is still far from the best when scaling up production) ...I know for sure that at Panda GM most boardgames can be produced for around 10-15 USD and we are talking about games with miniatures, dice, board and some 400 cards + uncountable tokens, standees etc (still they have a minimum of 2500 copies...but hopefully 500 backers on KS pay for everything and then you start gaining on what's left)
I said Panda as I spoke to them, they are not even the cheapest...and I am sure there are others more specific for TCG. (you might want to check where magic, pokemon, keyforge etc are produced)

That's it, no more about money!
I do agree that in the end the success of the game depends on how fun and addictive it is to play and on the enthusiastic community it brings together.
Good luck in your effort!
Antonio

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Wed, 12/16/2020 - 18:22
#13
questccg
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I am going to use "The Game Crafter" (TGC)

So the game will be "Made in the USA"! That's why the price per pack is so high. I believe the price is $5.29 USD. And the cost breaks in bulk amount to about $0.50 USD per pack (If I produce 100 versus only 1).

But I know this ... And the Backers will know this.

Also I don't think anyone but TGC can make this game. This is because of the "randomizer" that TGC uses and their custom process when printing and cutting cards (and/or Tiles).

All the other games are about card "sheets" and counts which depend on production related minimums. What I want to MAKE is impossible OUTSIDE of TGC. Nobody else can make it. At least not as affordable as TGC can because I am using their process and their tools.

I hope that people (gamers) look at this product as being a GAME they and their kids (ages 9+) can play. Kids can also play with their friends too. Once they are shown how to play by their siblings or parents or even their own friends. It's not that complex of a game ... But there is some DEPTH in the mechanics as I have chosen a "inspiration" like "Chess" when it comes to the "Attack Patterns". Mine are different, but the inspiration comes from "Chess".

I believe that CartaMundi ( https://cartamundi.com/en/ ) is where most Playing Card games are made (TCGs and CCGs).

The other thing you need to understand... Is that with TGC I can make up to the UNIT (in terms of manufacturing). I don't need to waste money on an inventory of unsold games. No I actually can make profit from the very FIRST game that I sell. I also have no need for WAREHOUSING and the fees that go along with that. Or landed pricing because I need to ship by boat my games. TGC will handle and make that all from the USA.

This too is important. I know this game is very different. But IF there is a market ... Why not?!

And you bring up a GREAT POINT: giving games FREE at a convention. Yeah that's an interesting IDEA for sure. Then I can already have a FAN Base. If I sell my parts separately like for $20 bucks (because my game also requires a pouch with "crystals" and custom d6s) then I can offset my cost and give a game with a net result (of zero)...

I'm not looking for "addictive" play... We've discussed that in another thread and ... games that are "addictive" are BAD. FUN, okay! Meaning you want to play 3 or 4 games... Then it's worth it!

Note #1: And why TGC??? Well "TradeWorlds" was a TGC production in its start. But I always wanted to design a game MADE FOR TGC ONLY. This game ("Crystal Heroes") is exactly that. I know it is possible for TGC games to be successful ... "TradeWorlds" is living proof.

But of course "TradeWorlds" will now be made in China... But I still got about $800+ USD of support on my Crowdsale on TGC. So bring your crowd and have a good time.

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Thu, 12/17/2020 - 05:10
#14
terzamossa
Offline
Joined: 09/24/2020
that's a relief

That's all good and fine to me, then your cost is USD 0.50 and the MSRP is USD 2.50 (which does not prevent you from selling at USD 15 if that is the perceived value, and I'd be happy for you if that's the case :) )

Whenever you run some playtesting I'll be happy to participate and give feedback on the game...and I hope I'll have a link for the 6th version of Kabula within 2-3 weeks too!
Cheers,
Antonio

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Thu, 12/17/2020 - 10:45
#15
let-off studios
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Joined: 02/07/2011
Perceived Value = Up To You?

I can understand wanting to maximize profit on any product. However, I wonder just how much the Perceived Value of a good is in the hands of the producer. Particularly in the case of a brand-spanking-new product in a market that has plenty of competition and comparable products, I don't think you have much control over this.

I think one of the ways I'm most familiar with in terms of inflating perceived value of a good is with marketing and promotions. If something isn't well-known and word is not spread for it, then regardless of its quality or scarcity there will be fewer purchases of that product. That doesn't mean it's not high-quality (or in this case, that doesn't mean it isn't fun), it means that the value hasn't been communicated to others.

So marketing is in your control. How much do you intend to promote your game? Can you adequately increase desirability to justify (well, I -guess- "justify" is the word) your purchase price? When there are so many competitors and comparable products, the perceived value of any good is already deflated. A new game doesn't emerge into a vacuum.

Comparing a new game to the current M:tG market seems to me as counterproductive, as that game has been around for many, many years. They have so many more intangibles that are not gained through marketing that a new product simply does not have. Not only do they attract new players with each release, but they have a worldwide, multi-generational following that is beyond literally all other games of its type out there. I hate to sound like a jerk about this: WotC has been around and making games for decades... Have you? Magic: the Gathering has been around for decades... What is Crystal Heroes?

My main point, I suppose: Rarity and exclusivity are only part of the picture, and are not the only things that increase purchase price. Desirability needs to either organically emerge (over time, in most cases), or be fabricated (with marketing and promotions). A producer can create marketing-influenced desirability, but not organic desirability.

This could just be me looking at this from an overly-simplistic, "You're putting the cart before the horse" kind of perspective, and if that's the case then I apologize.

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Thu, 12/17/2020 - 16:56
#16
questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
Not quite so true...

I'm not trying to "maximize profits" ... I'm just trying to see how to compare my game "Crystal Heroes" (CH) to one such as "Magic: the Gathering" (Magic) when it comes to the distribution format. CH like Magic will utilize the "Booster Pack" format and I was trying to determine how "valuable" a Pack could be that potentially has more than just 2 uncommon cards and 1 rare card (like with Magic).

See there is a Format difference in that with CH you can get MULTIPLE "rare" Game Tiles in one single Pack. Actually speaking you can get 14 different "rare" cards in ONE (1) single Pack.

So I was trying to determine how that "extra" value impacts the "perceived" value?! Because potentially each of your tiles could be ALL "rare" (14 Game Tiles)... What could be the market price for such a 15 Tile Booster Pack???

I'm not copying the myriad of other games that look like Magic. No my game is very different and in many ways. It's not even close to Magic as the primary mechanic is "Area Control". That must be a shocker. So NO, I don't think there is much competition in this game space... I think CH is UNIQUE and nothing like the other card games remotely in it's class.

But I was trying to determine how VALUABLE a 15 Tile Booster Pack that has the potential of yielding 14 "rare" tiles could be WORTH...! Is $14.99 USD reasonable for the "rare" chasing? I mean if you get three (3) "rare" tiles is it WORTH $14.99 or (Appx. 3x $4.99). I mean what if you get five (5) "rare" tiles ... does this easily mean that the Pack is worth $24.99 USD (because it would take 5 Magic Packs to get the same amount of rare cards)???

That sort of what I meant when comparing CH to Magic. On a "on par" situation where we merely compare the OFFER... Can this make for a equally reasonable price point when you consider the "perceived" value?!

And Magic doesn't guarantee what KIND of "rare" card you get. It can be $1.00 or it can be $100.00. The point is you are paying $4.99 USD for only ONE (1) Guaranteed "rare" card. So if POTENTIALLY you could get 14 "rare" tiles... What would be the VALUE of such a pack???

That's more of what I was thinking... Cheers!

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Thu, 12/17/2020 - 17:01
#17
questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
Not exactly what I meant...

terzamossa wrote:
That's all good and fine to me, then your cost is USD 0.50 and the MSRP is USD 2.50...

No I meant the PRICE BREAK is $0.50 USD. So $5.29 - $0.50 = $4.79 COST each... The MSRP is TBD. That's what I am trying to determine. If I WANT to sell to retail stores, the value needs to be more than DOUBLE because of the 50% retail markup.

So, that's like $11.00 USD and up. If the product is sold in stores.

And realistically I don't know how WELL this game will sell ONLINE. As some have suggested, it's a question of "Marketing" and "Organic" growth (grassroots).

Note #1: The price break ($0.50) is ONLY when I order 100 or more units/packs. It's not high... But if I base everything on the "per unit" basis ... That just means I'll squeeze out a few extra dollars of profit...

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Thu, 12/17/2020 - 17:39
#18
questccg
questccg's picture
Online
Joined: 04/16/2011
My thoughts on "rare" chasing

My own personal "experience" from chasing "rare" cards comes from a Customizable Card Game: Star Trek: The Next Generation, White border.

This was an exciting game to chase because we were aiming to get COOL character cards like "Data", "Captain Picard", "Will Riker", "Diana Troy", etc. I eventually landed up with TWO (2) Picards... That was a FUN game to chase "rare" cards because the cards you were chasing you "understood".

When it comes to Magic: the Gathering... I'm not quite sure WHAT we are "chasing"??? Is it the "Black Lotus"? Or some other "unknown" card...??? See that's the thing with Magic Boosters... They don't really explain HOW valuable a card is for the PLAYER, nor do they say how valuable it is for the COLLECTOR. IMHO Magic chasing is POINTLESS. And I have never been one to waste money on "pointless" efforts.

If I compare this to "Crystal Heloes" (CH), the "rare" chasing is more open because you can COMPARE a "common" and "rare" tile and ACTUALLY "understand" the difference between BOTH tiles. So chasing rare tiles actually serves a PURPOSE to the GAMER. For the collector, not so much since usually collectors enjoy ART. The "common" version of all the tiles would suffice for the "collectors".

Why is any of this IMPORTANT?! Well I think Magic chasing is UNDEFINED. What exactly are we supposed to be "EXCITED FOR"??? It's sort of unknown and that to me doesn't breed ANY EXCITEMENT. No for me it's the opposite, I'd just get a set of 15 cards... Not knowing which one was worth more than the rest. And would that excite me?! Definitely NOT!

I went to a store to buy some "card supplies" (Sleeves, Boxes, etc.) and the clerk asked me IF I wanted to buy some Magic Packs. He said that I could resell the cards that I didn't want and purchase additional packs.

I was NOT interested. When it comes to Magic, I buy Pre-Con Decks with all common cards and cost under $10.00 USD. Then I've worked with @Adam (@AdamRobinGames-ARG) to figure what cards I should BUY (again SINGLES) to improve the deck given it's own personal strategy. That to me MAKES sense: I know what I have and figuring out how to IMPROVE it is not the most difficult part... With some help from a Magic Expert like @Adam ... It's fairly understandable what I should buy.

So then my $10.00 USD Deck costs me about $25.00 USD in enhancements and then I compute that my modified/upgraded Deck costs me about $35.00 USD. This is the price of 7 "Booster Packs" of which I could never be guaranteed the cards that I would get ... would be the ones that I NEED.

Anyhow... The singles AFTERMARKET is the best way to augment a Pre-Con Deck that ONLY has "commons". That's how I collect Magic cards (per Deck).

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