Skip to Content
 

Sharing the games: losing value by copies or stealing?

8 replies [Last post]
PauloAugusto
PauloAugusto's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2011

Concerning sharing our game ideas or a full (unpublished) game. (this may come up alor but i found no sticky)
I would really like to have the confidence to discuss openly with other developers. But i don't think i am confident enough for complete openness (like opening a game as PnP for everyone).
Yes, i know, i read many threads about how the developers shouldn't need to worry about having their game stolen. Still, one thing i know about the Internet is that people usually regard everything they find on it as Public Domain...

Imagine the Rondel. The Rondel is a pretty original and specific new game mechanic. Mac Gerdts invented that mechanic and developed what has became known as the Rondel series. I don't think no one is making Rondel games, i think that anyone who tries to make a Rondel game beyond Mac Gerdts has good chances of being acused of lameness (or maybe even of copying).
Now, i wonder, if he had shared the rondel mechanic in the Internet. How easy would it be for someone to look at the mechanic, not copy it, forget it, and one day come up with an «original» game mechanic? Maybe even publish a Rondel game before Mac Gerdts published it's first one.

But, now, imagine Richard Borg and it's Commands & Colours system (and game series). Even though it is a unique new mechanic (i think), it isn't all that different from the most common game mechanics around at the time. How easily would it pass someone using that new idea? Decreasing the originality value of Richard Borg's games.

And now, even further, imagine a game that doesn't have any really original game mechanic: it is just a solid and good working set of already existing common mechanics (a game doesn't need original mechanics to be good). How easy it is to be influenced by that and try to copy parts (even if not everything) of the game that work really well?

And now, imagine Warhammer from Games Workshop, an already published and well established «board»-game. It was stol.. sorry, law says that Warcraft was "inspired" by Warhammer.
And now, imagine Warhammer 40K from Games Workshop, an already published and well established «board»-game. It was stole.. sorry, law says Starcraft was inspired by Warhammer 40K. So, the Terran are «only» inspired by the Space Marines, the Protoss are only inspired by the Eldar, the Zerg are only inspired by the Tyranids, so i can't say that starcraft is a rip-off of warhammer 40K!

###

I was reading a blog (i think kind of a diary) about a board game designer. Like so often, also he talked about how silly developers looked when trying to protect their games with copyrights (which i understand because it is automatically «protected» at creation and either way it is still copyable) and silly when trying to protect them by not opening them to the public and, also, how he didn't knew of any case where board-game stealing had happened (well, i could point Warhammer 40K -> Starcraft).
But then, he talks about a game he wasn't able to publish because, after the game had been aproved for publishing, they learned about a game coming out almost exactly the same.

I read a few times about how people usually come up with the exact same/very similar ideas. I know it happens inocently (sometimes or even often). But how are people so sure it is always just a coincidence? I know of at least 2 instances where a board-game has been ripped-off.
Consider a very inocent happening: not copying intentionally but, unconciously copying some ideas because the memory stored something and that something comes up in someone's brain later on and that someone thinks (s)he came up with something original.

###

I am ok with a game being inspired to some degree by another *already published* game (not like Warhammer 40K -> Starcraft), or using some similar mechanics to an *already published* game. Like using something kind of similar to the Rondel, now that Mac Gerdts established it's empire of Rondel series's games and benefits fully and rightfully from it's original idea and established empire.

But i fear someone benefiting from my hard work before i even publish one single game. As an unpublished and uncredited developer, i don't think i could even make anyone believe my work had been ripped-off... I also have fear of benefiting from someone else's work in that same manner, so much that i often (always?) don't read other's unpublished ideas or game rules.

I would like to feel at ease to be completely open about all of my game ideas (and even open my games as PnP) but i don't think i can reason any reasoning that allows me the confidence to do it.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Just share what you want to share

Nobody in this community is going to FORCE you to share your game ideas... Share whatever you feel like sharing. Speak in Greek so only our members in Greece can understand you... (Sorry there are Greek speaking people living everywhere - my apologies...)

Brykovian
Brykovian's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/21/2008
Share what you feel you can

As already stated: It comes down to you sharing what you feel you can.

As for how this community works together and can help you, if you're willing to share, I'd like to offer just one example:

An original idea from one of the earliest members (and a current Admin) of BGDF almost 2 years ago now (!): http://www.bgdf.com/node/2649
... this has lead to this: http://playtmg.com/products/eminent-domain

In between was a lot of back-and-forth with other members, Seth showing some things and getting comments, chat sessions, even a print-n-play version for people to test and give him feedback.

If you read that original post, a lot of his original guiding ideas remain in the actual published game, even as the details were tweak and honed via the feedback from this community as well as the in-person play-testing Seth put the game through.

Most reviews I've read of the game speak about how innovative it is compared to other post-Dominion deck-builders ... and a lot of those original ideas were right there in that first "hey, I got an idea" post.

It's just one example (of many) where sharing openly and taking feedback has lead to an impressive final result ... and, I would assume, may have improved the designs and ideas of other members of the community by simply taking part.

Cheers,
-Matt

pelle
pelle's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/11/2008
1. No one else understand

1. No one else understand your idea like you do, so their copy will be different.

2. Why steal an unpublished idea? Everyone sits on hundreds of their own great ideas, believing they are superior anyway.

3.... SO I share ides, often thinking out loud in forums long before I think of turning the idea into a game. If someone use my idea? Good for them! If I use it larer I can point at my old posts so every geek that might care can see I was first.

4. Stealing frim successful games is why we have genres. Nothing bad borrowing space marines or deck-building or whatever from popular games.

desperadonate
Offline
Joined: 12/07/2011
I think it's about risk/reward

I heard a lot of game designers make similar statements, and I kind of felt the same way you did until I read one designer who explained it as (to paraphrase) "It's not that there's no chance of your ideas being stolen, it's that it's a very small chance and you can miss out on great opportunities to get very helpful advice and feedback if you never share your ideas with others."

For accidental copying, I think if people are unaware that they're borrowing an idea they saw earlier and it just "bubbled up" from their subconscious, they're going to change things enough that it's going to be different. Unless they're ripping off a good amount of someone else's work, I don't think it's a big deal unless you have a completely new mechanic no one has ever thought of. Building off of other peoples ideas and adapting them (in the pursuit of a unique end-product) is going to ultimately going to benefit everyone because it means more games and it means progress in game development because those ideas will then be reinterpreted by someone else down the line to create a fresh new interesting game. That said I think it would be frustrating to see a game very similar to yours being made by someone else, even if there was nothing malicious about it.

If you're worried about stolen ideas, I think you can minimize it through carefully documenting your game and stuff so you could file a copyright infringement suit should whatever was ripped off falls into that domain, and you can put watermarks or notices on what you do share. I would definitely be cautious if I had a game mechanic I felt would be ground breaking, but other than that, I doubt the risk is too substantial if you take precautionary steps. Ultimately I guess each designer just has to weigh value of input and advice against the risk of theft and make their decision based off of that. For me, I'd rather spend time working on games and getting more feedback to speed things along than worrying about my ideas being stolen, but I'm mostly doing this as a hobby and if I happen to come up with something I think will be a best seller, I'll deal with money concerns then. For someone who wants to do make money, or even a living, designing games, I'm sure it's a much bigger factor in the equation.

Just a side note: I heard the Warhammer/Starcraft thing happened because Blizzard and Games Workshop had an agreement to do the game together but Games Workshop pulled out at the last minute for some reason, and since Blizzard already had the game pretty much finished, they just renamed the factions instead of redoing it. That's just what I've been told - I haven't looked into it too much, so I could be wrong.

PauloAugusto
PauloAugusto's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2011
Thanks for the answers. As a

Thanks for the answers.
As a note: i wasn't complaining about feeling forced to share ideas or game content, nor was i excusing myself for not doing so. I was considering the whole thing and trying to hear opinions about it.

desperadonate wrote:

I think it's about risk/reward

I am sure i will still keep at least moderate reservations but i think i will try to warm up a little to exposing my ideas and parts of my most advanced game. I'l see how it goes from there.

heavyrocks
heavyrocks's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/11/2012
Someone using your ideas

Someone using your ideas should be taken as a compliment. If they do a terrible job, then you can boast that you were the original and you did it better. If they do a great job, then you can boast that you were their inspiration. Once any piece of art is released, it doesn't really belong to anyone. So what if Blizzard ripped Warhammer? Warhammer was severely limited by its medium of expensive pieces of plastic that you had to meet up with people in person to duel with. Starcraft fixed that, and sped gameplay up. The guy that invented the laptop "stole" the idea of the PC, but threw a twist on it...

truekid games
truekid games's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/29/2008
The rondel is not really that

The rondel is not really that new- Antike is 7 years old, Imperial is 6. And neuland, which has a different sort of rondel, and wasn't designed by Mac Gerdts, is 8 years old. Moreover, there are lots of interesting things you could do with a rondel that differ significantly from what Gerdts does with them. Finca, for instance, does something different and interesting with it.

Command and Colors is actually not that mechanically interesting- the most non-plain thing in it is area movement by playing cards, which is still fairly blah. It's more interesting from a usability standpoint than a mechanics one.

In any case, most good ideas get stolen after they've shown they're good by actually earning money as a published product (Dominion getting mechanically copy-pasted by Thunderstone/Ascension, for example. Or Magic: the Gathering and every CCG in the 90's)... which basically shows that it doesn't matter how concerned you are about stuff being stolen beforehand, because if it really is a good idea, it'll get stolen after the fact anyway.

That said, like the others above mentioned, share what you feel comfortable with. It's not like this is a frat house where you have to go streaking before you can be considered a contributing member of the community.

James Rex
Offline
Joined: 12/10/2011
Stealing stuff?

Stealing is kind of a non-issue as most mechanics are stolen or inspired from many other games and sources. My CCG is a collection of ideas that I liked from Magic, Star Wars, Ascension and Catan, for example. By themselves, it's obvious where my inspirations come from but if you put all of them together you get a neat game.

Way back in '94, Magic failed at copyrighting the "tap" mechanic. Game mechanics aren't specifically protected by copyright laws according to the US government. The closest thing they could do is trademark the tab symbol. Since then, dozens of other games have use that mechanic.

Your better off copyrighting the art and trademarking your logos if you are really worried about it.

Have fun!
www.stompinggroundsgame.com

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut