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The demo of my fist game is finally released

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Sun, 01/10/2010 - 10:59
larienna
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I will be releasing my first board game("Fallen Kingdoms") soon and I have made a small demo game which is now available on my website at this address:

http://ariel.bdeb.qc.ca/~ericp/cgi-bin/boardgame/games/fallen_kingdoms/i...

This demo is a downgraded version of the original game to make sure there is an interest for
players to buy the full game. Even if the demo is much more limited, it will still give you
a look and feel of how the real game works.

If you do not like some mechanics of the demo game, like for example the combat
or the production, then you probably should not like the full game. If you like the
mechanics and the concept of the demo game but don’t find the game interesting or
exciting, that is OK and you might actually like the full game. The demo gives a less
interesting experience since it’s goal is to give you an idea of how the game works.

Hope you enjoy it!

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Sun, 01/10/2010 - 15:39
#1
domd
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Rules and writing style

I can tell that you have put some work into the concept of your game. It looks like it could be interesting to play, but I had a very difficult time sorting through your rules. Just trying to be helpful and constructive here, I would suggest you take a look at the format of the way that the rules are written in other games. You may want to establish the objective of the game early in the rules, even the first paragraph unless you want to tell a back-story. The rules aren't meant to read like prose; they need to be instructive enough to make your game intuitive to a first-time user. At this point it will take me another read certainly to figure out the difference between trophies and victory points. Seemed like trophies lead to vic points, but if they are the same then how is # trophies used as a tie-breaker? That made me go back and try to understand again but I was getting lost in the words. Anyway, I am hoping that you don't think this is too critical, just helpful. Looking forward to seeing more and trying it out.

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Mon, 01/11/2010 - 11:07
#2
fjohns
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Kingdoms that Raise and Falls. . . .

It should read,

"Kingdoms that Rise and Fall." Awkward language can be off-putting and lead one to reflect on the game and its validity, successful play and/or interest, itself.

When writing rules, follow any number of workable guidelines offered here and other sites. Remember to write from what the new player does not know, not from what you do know. It is one of the US failings in education. Teachers teach from what they know and not from what the student doesn't know.

Good luck on your reflection and rewrites.

fj

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Mon, 01/11/2010 - 16:58
#3
larienna
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Thank for the comments,

Thank for the comments, negative comments are welcomed else I won't be able to improve myself.

Quote:
I would suggest you take a look at the format of the way that the rules are written in other games.

I have been using the "Fantasy Flight" rule model:

1. Component description
2. Game Setup
3. Turn order sequence
4. Other rules
5. Reference information

I only added game assembly and some notes at the beginning of the rules since the game needs to be assembled.

Quote:
Awkward language can be off-putting and lead one to reflect on the game and its validity, successful play and/or interest, itself.

English is not my first language so errors can occur. One of my friend who speaks English has been reading the rules of the real game and he found them pretty clear.

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Wed, 01/13/2010 - 22:30
#4
Pastor_Mora
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Comment on Fallen Kingdoms

Hi Eric

I’ve read the Fallen Kingdoms rulebook and, at first glance, I think production mechanics is the most valuable aspect of the game. Trophies, on the other hand, appear as the most complex. But that is because the rulebook has a complex structure. Once understood, they are not that intricate.

I also liked the fact that if you where overrun by your opponent you could spawn again anywhere in the map edge. If you are playing a long game (over 120 min) with friends and you are eliminated in the first 20 minutes, you’ll bore to death. But soon, the first question came up: what will you respawn with if all your armies where slaughtered???

I haven’t tested it in-game, but I have a theory of a possible unbalance. My thesis is that trophies should not increase if the number of players increases (at least not knowledge trophies). I will continue with my mental experiment as the argument, so as to be more reader-friendly.

Let’s set up a 4-player’s game. With the 3 map pieces (2 with 9 cities and the 3º with 6) you get 24 cities that, equally divided by 4 players, mean 6 cities each. As a cleaver leader, you will position yourself in the edge of the map, getting 2 ore, 2 hammers, and 2 scrolls. If you don’t attack or loose a city, you will steadily produce 1 combat unit and 1 building per turn, and 1 knowledge every three turns. Say you spend your first turn just reinforcing your defenses and produce from the second turn on, you will acquire full buildings capacity by turn 7. At that point you’ll be able to easily present a defense force 4 armies if attacked, which is quite a deterrent by itself, mostly if the player in your borders can rely in you not attacking him and can devote his efforts in his other frontier. At that point you’ll be scoring 8 victory points per turn! Possibly with the 2º largest army and the 2º largest kingdom due to others being killing each other all the time. If you continue building up your defenses as a deterrent while investing heavily on knowledge, you’ll reach the maximum army level by turn 14. By that time, you’ll be scoring 14 victory points (6 buildings and 8 knowledge) per turn and adding one more to the sum every turn! For those that haven’t read the rulebook, you get 2 trophies (2 victory points per turn) if you wipe out a player completely! (heavily underrated I think). Moreover, the major enemy will have a hard time massing-up an army at your gates because he will have –say- 10 cities (that’s 3 armies/city with the 30-armies limit, provided he achieved supremacy without loosing a single army so far) and he must cover his back of respawning players and foreign raiders (full game only). Naaaa… (and he couldn’t be making more than 10 victory points a turn at this point)

Conclusion: in a 3 players game the maximum knowledge trophies are 9, in a 4 players game the maximum is 12. I think this counters the necessary bloodlust of wargames. Fallen Kingdoms mix empire building (materially and culturally) and war. The mechanics leave these two aspects too leveled in strategic terms for my liking. It is my humble opinion that the game should focus on the war aspect, leaving the knowledge and buildings maybe as combat bonuses, not weighting more in the victory achievement than combat itself. Maybe it’s because I prefer wargames better, but the game aesthetic suggest more a wargame than not.

Sorry about the length.

Keep thinking!

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Wed, 01/13/2010 - 23:26
#5
domd
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Wow - fantastic post

Pastor_Mora, that post was excellent. I only hope more people pay that close of attention to the other users on this site who are looking for good feedback. I promise to the entire site I will do more like this in the future when I can afford the time (small kids!). Thanks again. - Dom

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Thu, 01/14/2010 - 15:53
#6
larienna
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Thanks for the comments. I

Thanks for the comments. I really appreciate.

Quote:
Trophies, on the other hand, appear as the most complex

If the trophy explaination is that complex, maybe like some other suggested, saying what are the objectives at the beginning of the game and how you score points would be important. Note that in the real game, each type of trophy has 2 functions (conquest boost intimidation, building boost production, technology gives special abilities). Also VP increase if you have more trophies of the same type. So maybe it is worth more explanation.

Quote:
I also liked the fact that if you where overrun by your opponent you could spawn again anywhere in the map edge.

This is the core of the game, In average, there should be a new invader every turn.

Quote:
My thesis is that trophies should not increase if the number of players increases (at least not knowledge trophies)

This is an optional rule to make the game shorter. I was not sure If I should used a fixed or variable amount of trophy. Since more players = more stuff done in total, trophies would exaust faster, so I set it relative to nb of players. More lnowledge can get confusing near the end with too much pecial abilites (that is true), but on the other hand, it accelerate the games due to the many benefits the players receives. (by the way, knowledge becomes usable by everybody once you surrender your kingdom)

Quote:
equally divided by 4 players, mean 6 cities each.

In the original rule, there are various map layout and the rule is to have 6 cities per player. So the Map layout I gave in the demo just prevent the players to make the calculations.

Quote:
Say you spend your first turn just reinforcing your defenses and produce from the second turn on, you will acquire full buildings capacity by turn 7.

You are dreaming. Even if you are camping like crazy, You can hold at most 5 turn. Believe me, invaders kick hard and if you camp, players will gang on you. Invaders roll 3 dices for battle. If you want to control 10 territories with 3 units, forget it, it won't hold. And with 3 units, you give a rampage possibility to invaders, really not good. In the real game there is intimidation which affects battle and the only way to improve your intimidation is to gather conquest trophy which mean not camp.

Quote:
you get 2 trophies (2 victory points per turn) if you wipe out a player completely! (heavily underrated I think)

If I don't give 2 trophy, first the other trophies always exaust before conquest trophies. Second, players won't add any extra effort to kill a player because he knows he is going to surrender anyways. So this rules balance things out.

Quote:
Fallen Kingdoms mix empire building (materially and culturally) and war.

True, I rarely try to do war only games, it increase my audiance this way. The feeling I was seeking with this game is the contradiction between building and destroying stuff (in an old version of the game, buildings were destroyed). My girlfriend hates my game because she does not like loosing what she has built. Which made me realize that what my game try to teach to players is: "Learn to let go". Learn to know when to abbandon your kingdom and start new.

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Thu, 01/14/2010 - 20:05
#7
Pastor_Mora
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I don't get the 30 troops max

You say that "If you want to control 10 territories with 3 units, forget it, it won't hold." And your game has a maximum of 30 troops in play. So, how do you do it? Do you explode like a nuke in your attack turn, and then you are wiped out yourself on the opponents turn? Hopefully scoring more "trophies" in the process... too much "letting go" for me.

I don't have the full game, but I don't get it. Or maybe I just can't imagine enough. My theory was to camp with only six territories, and your mean to survive was to be desuasive. It thought of only five at first, but whatever. I don't see how they will be ganging on me if I have three entry points maximum, most likely with the same fortunate guy, because I wont be attacking him (not counting possible respawns, wich I still don't know where they get their strength from).

Well, I've enjoyed the reading anyway. I only looked at the demo, and didn't know all the full game gadgets

Keep thinking!

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Fri, 01/15/2010 - 09:47
#8
larienna
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Quote:And your game has a

Quote:
And your game has a maximum of 30 troops in play. So, how do you do it?

Beign too small makes your prodution very low and does not allow you to build or develop a lot of stuff but gives you stronger defenses. Beign too large makes you achieve more things but you get weaker and will get anhilated more easily.

You will rarely have the maximum troops in play even after an invasion because you are going to lose troops while invading. While the time passes, you will be getting weaker an weaker because in theory you can regenerate less than you can lose. Or if you regenerate at full strength everyturn, you will not be developping any buildings or knowledges.

Quote:
My theory was to camp with only six territories, and your mean to survive was to be desuasive. It thought of only five at first, but whatever. I don't see how they will be ganging on me if I have three entry points maximum

Sure you can camp and carefully stay in your area of the map. It is possible that people leaves you alone for a while. But once a player decides to invade your territory, beleive me it is hard to survive. I could invade your 3 entry points with 10 units each, which will give you 2 territories in the end and having a production so low that you will have to invade on next turn.

I think there are actually 2 kind of behavior, go risky by spreading wide, doing a lot of damage and building stuff. Or going cautionly, by not doing too much wars, and developing the land you are on. Both strategies are working but you normally should alternate between these strategies. If your previous kingdom was really agressive, then you want to slow down on your next kingdom to maximize development this time.

If also depends on the opther players behavior. For example, If they all go offensive, you might stay defensive and be stronger than other players this way. But one thing for sure, don't expect to keep the same kingdom for the whole game. Eventually it will have to fall and you will have to determine when it is the time to "let it go".

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