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to forge ahead or just leave it as a garage game..

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Martin_cy
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Joined: 04/24/2009

Hi people, first post here :)

about 3 years ago I started to design a CCG, spent about a month on it, then basically just "forgot" about it for 3 years as I just couldn't really get it to work as a CCG and I started to loath CCGs for the whole "collectible" thingy.. then about a year ago I started to get heavy into board games, and I realized that my old CCG game could work very good as a board game, and no more annoying "collectible"..

so I've spent the last 3 months working on it (late nights).. and the other week had a first real play test with a gaming group and they were pretty much blown away and had a blast.. of course some tweaking is required.. and already been working on that.. and introducing some new mechanics that will enhance the game..

I've gotten pretty good using Gimp (excellent tool!) and Magic Set Editor 2, for making my cards also a very good tool though learning curve is pretty darn steep, but it does produce nice looking cards..

but now at that point soon where I will need to decide what to do.. and in all honesty I've spent a lot of time reading and listening to interviews with designers/publishers and everyone do paint a damn bleak picture.. everyone saying more or less as in "only get into this business if you like pain and like to loose money for several years" does not sound like much fun! hehe

So far the game hasn't really cost me much in real money maybe like 30-50$ for print supplies etc.. and of course lots of time and since this is a hobby that doesn't count :P

up until now basically i've blatantly stolen all art from online sites such as deviant art and google (just because i like to see something while playing) and if im gone get real art.. its going to be a fortune..
as i got a total of 150 unique cards that all need art though so thats 150x 2"x2" pieces!! then another 20x 3"x3" and one 18x12 art..

that will probably be a small fortune.. to commission that.. and then looking at how much people are struggling to get their game out there, it is a pretty small market, and there are soooo many games, why really put myself through it? game designer are sure not in it for the money? the glory?

I think for me i just have this creative streak in me that just need to come out and I dont get to do it in my work so creating games as a hobby will have to do..

So it feels like I will probably just make a really nice prototype with box and everything and stolen images (that will probably cost me a total of 90$ and thats it, and just keep it in my collection and play with friends and move on to the next design project..

maybe if i go play the lottery and win a million or 5 i could be bothered to put it out.. now I just dont see it worth the money to get it out..

It would nice to hear some designers thoughts when they were in this situation, what made you try to go all the way, and if you didn't what held you back?

ReneWiersma
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Joined: 08/08/2008
Martin (I don't hope some old

Martin (I don't hope some old painter is called Martin... ),

Why not just contact a publisher and try and see if they are interested in publishing your game? They can deal with all the hassle, money, art, etc, and you can rake in the royalties :)

Martin_cy
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Joined: 04/24/2009
that is true, didn't think to

that is true, didn't think to much about that though of course the chance of getting picked up is pretty slim, but then of course if nobody wants it thats not much difference from me having it only sitting on my self at home.. hehe

I guess taking the time to make a nice sell sheet, make a nice working prototype (with none owned images).. and pimp it too some publishers, if they want to pick it up i guess some things will get changed, and they would need to find the art.. wouldn't be too bad..

I just wonder how much a publisher would change things from my original vision.. I guess it depends.. But it would be neat to have my name on some game that actually got published.. even if itsn't exactly what i submitted originally.

to what level would you guys think I should take a game before start pimping it to publishers? obviously tons of play testing, polished rules.. I guess I should have a sell sheet..

That stage is probably still a few months away but that does sound something i could do, because honestly I really don't feel like taking the dive to start commissioning art for something that i probably will never make the money back on...

ReneWiersma
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Joined: 08/08/2008
Just playtest the hell out of

Just playtest the hell out of the game, preferably with many different people. If you manage to play it for a few months or so without changing anything major, it is time to start looking for a publisher. Make sure you have a well-written rulebook. Without a good rulebook, you can forget it. By the way, it is OK if you use clip-art, or other copyrighted images downloaded from the internet for your prototype as they won't be used in the final product anyway.

Most publishers will change a few things about the game, usually theme and art will be changed and some rules may be tweaked. Most publishers don't have the time to do major rules tweaking an retesting, and most publisher will consult the designer about this anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

MichaelM
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Joined: 03/09/2009
Playtest it heavily for 3 months, then submit it to me.

I am the founder of Tasty Minstrel Games. We have two games that we are launching later this year, Homesteaders and Terra Prime. I am currently in the position of looking for games to be published in 2010.

We also have an in house development team. (to be read as sedjtroll + dedicated play testers / game breakers). I would certainly be willing to take a look at a sell sheet and the rules. With the possibility of taking a prototype to play with the intent of making a publishing decision. Send me a private message.

So you should definitely work on it, but not necessarily with the same intent you were thinking about.

SuperSize
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Joined: 05/14/2009
Hey Martin

Hey Martin,

Looks like you got some really good advice (and an invitation) above.

I enjoyed reading your post, nice to know others have same train of thaought as me. Give it your best shot without sinking a whole lotta cash into it. I think if the game works well someone will pick it up...and posting here was a good idea. Good luck man. I'd like to hear more about ya game - what sort of theme you got going on? You got me curious.

simpson
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Joined: 10/22/2008
Quote:By the way, it is OK if

Quote:
By the way, it is OK if you use clip-art, or other copyrighted images downloaded from the internet for your prototype as they won't be used in the final product anyway.

Its ok to use free-rights clipart or images that allow certain print rights via Creative Commons but if anyone uses copyrighted images without expressed permissions from the copyright holder, then copyright violation can be cited.

As an illustrator, I have people using my work for their games frequently, which I certainly don't mind -- I want to see more game designs out there. But its also my livelihood, it takes two seconds to send out an email to let me know.

Let me setup a scenario:
-Game company contracts illustrator to do game art
-Illustrator does game art for a game
-Illustrator shows game art in portfolio site
-Game designer pulls game art from portfolio site to use in their prototype
-Game designer pitches prototype to Game company while still using artwork
-Game company owns print rights to artwork
-Illustrator can now be involved in copyright violation for work he made

A simple email can avert this.

simpson

ZHeMeSoR
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Joined: 05/20/2009
Pump it out or??

Hey what if I am in the same kind of boat Martin is, but I have more like 250 cards to make? Not to mention packaging art and the board itself? Does anybody have advice for a guy who created a great strategy game that is just a little on the complex side for most audiences? I have been looking at the software option, but since I'm not a programmer, I'm not sure where to go with this. The game I'm referring to is called "Battle Chest: Pangea". The general idea stared almost three years ago when I realized I had an awesome beer cap collection with something like two hundred varieties of caps. I stuck the caps (after careful counts and all) into a small chest and stared building a board game based on random draw of the caps; instead of dice rolls or drawing cards. Anyway, everybody that has play tested it says that this is probably the most unique aspect of the game and that would be lost in the software version... Do I scale it down? Are there enough people out there that don't mind a bit of variety and randomness??
Anyway, I'd appreciate any input or thoughts at this point...(obviously if I were to market the board game, we would use custom made chips, not beer caps - I'd hate to tackle that problem with the brew companies... or should I?)
Peace.

Willi B
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Joined: 07/28/2008
Keep working at the game.

Believe it or not, I am a 10 year mark (off and on) for a former CCG. I won't give up on it as I feel it is worth the effort. I think it will be pitched at GENCON or ORIGINS, pending some tweaking.

Appealing to the broader audience will get you more sales, obviously. So My mantra has been simplify, simplify, simplify. While some will appreciate the CCG level of depth, you have to be more like Dominion if you want bigger sales in the board game niche. Too much randomness, first turn killer combos and the like just aren't that fun when you are on the receiving end and will put many off.... so I don't have that.

In the end you have to make the call, but, unless you are a millionaire or a prolific and highly talented artist, I definitely be looking at pitching instead of self producing that much artwork.

Katherine
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Joined: 07/24/2008
Willi B wrote:In the end you

Willi B wrote:
In the end you have to make the call,

well said Willi B ...

Martin_cy wrote:
and just keep it in my collection and play with friends and move on to the next design project..

Is this your final call Martin?

Martin_cy
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Joined: 04/24/2009
thanks for all the great

thanks for all the great replies!!!!!

I've decided that I will work on it until I'm happy with it, then I will see if any publisher is interested, if they are it will get published I guess :)

but I will not take out a new loan on the house to self publish it etc.. if no publisher wants to pick it up well then it will stay on the shelf..

as for the game..

Thematically currently my game is sci-fi-ish as in a post world-war 3, but several 100 years have passed since then, and countries as before does no longer exist but instead it city states that fight for power and dominance using any means (military, political etc etc).. much of the land is still labeled as "bad lands" but slowly areas are getting reclaimed, and new cities emerge funded by the existing ones.. The player take the role of a veteran fighter/politician that has just spent most of his fortune, called in all the favors he can and he has been selected as a champion of one city state, as it has been decided that a new area of land is open for building and it needs a new governor, this is the position you will fight for. only problem is that there are are other wanting the position as well!

so the players will start building their city, different buildings offer different advantages, but all buildings require power to run, so you need to have power plants to support them, and you build fighting units from different buildings etc.. buildings can be destroyed or damaged, and there are consequences to loosing buildings etc so you might want to protect them..

to boil it down, it is euro game inspired as in there is no game board and you collect points, but unlike most euros this is confrontational, to get ahead in one type of scoring you need to steal points from an opponent.. it is a pretty heavy game and it is strategic.. It is very fast between players so very short waits between players, but each turn each player is given a large number of possible actions and can only select very limited amount.. but all will benefit the player.. Also there are special event cards that the player can chose to draw and use which might offer advantages or damage to opponents.. of course there is a lot more detail to this.. call me silly but I dont want to give everything away just yet :)

ZHeMeSoR
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Joined: 05/20/2009
I hear what you are saying!

Hey thanks for the input (well, that is, if you were talkin to me, but either way it was helpful)
I just wanted to say something else about my game. Detection and stealth.
You can hide pieces on the board and get "detector" units to find them. Since there isn't quite enough detector possibility to cover the entire board, and since the name of the game is to assassinate the other guys main character, There really aren't any quick and easy first turn moves; at least none have been found in game testing yet, although that is still in the first stages right now. I do appreciate the advice to not have any randomness that is too quick and powerful, and I do plan to watch closely for that. Another element of the game I must convey is that other than a few rare exceptions, most of the beer caps in the chest are like a potential or a resource type of thing. Getting a level one recruitment cap for your faction for example, will simply give you access to the level one character cards. What you pull out of the deck with that cap is up to the player... is it making sense or am I out there too much?? Anyhow, unless somebody has extremely terrible luck, they should be able to stay alive even after a couple unlucky draw turns... It's really not any different than a dice game if you think about it. Mathematically the only difference is that the odds keep changing every time based on what gets played to the board and all. If I have pitched anything interesting here, please comment. Any experience you guys might have in a board game environment that has shifting odds, like a Magic the Gathering type thing, except with a "geography" involved, please share!
Thanks.

ZHeMeSoR
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Joined: 05/20/2009
Very cool Martin

I dig it. The overall idea is good. Maybe a software version could be in your future? Just a thought. I heard Starcraft and Warcraft started out as board games, now look at them - ha!
Peace.

bluepantherllc
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Joined: 07/29/2008
To publish or not

You could always make a PDF version of your game and list it on one of the download sites as a free or low cost game (< $5). Then after you get a sense of whether it's a good seller, you could consider your next move.

SJ

End of Time Games
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Joined: 04/16/2009
I have to referance this

I have to referance this interview with Jerimaiah Lee, a bgdf member, who created Zombie in my Pocket. I haven't played the game but it seems to have become a big hit. I find his story inspiring because as he sais it only took him a few months to create the game and it become quite popular.
http://printandplay.blogspot.com/2009/04/special-episode-002-jeremiah-le...

It's a goo reminder not to get discouraged. Enjoy!

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