Skip to Content
 

Yas, this is the right place for me...

15 replies [Last post]
Mon, 09/24/2018 - 20:41
Jordan Laine
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2018

Hello! I'm Jordan, I went to Vancouver Film School for game design over a decade ago and have been making games since a little before that. I started game dev primarily in video games (made a bunch of game jam games and programmed a game engine in AS3), I started making board games a few years ago when I made a paper prototype for a video game mechanic and found it was quite a bit of fun, so I developed it into a 1v1 hex based space war board game called "Save Our Species". SOS is still in development but it's looking like a possible q1 or q2 Kickstarter campaign. In the meantime I'm working to get a kickstarter going in the next month or two for a 2-9 player, counting, micro card game called "Count It!". And if that's not enough, I'm working on a train passenger game prototype that should be playable by the end of the year and just released a free single player print and play micro game called "Amoeba Sea".

I have no idea why or how it took me so long to find this forum but after a brief search through the forums I can already tell I'm in the right spot! I joined hoping to learn dice calculation math so I can program a simulation (or use an existing one and mod it) for SOS balancing as my maths are shamefully super, super neglected atm.

I'm super stoked to be here!!

Top
Mon, 09/24/2018 - 21:13
#1
Stormyknight1976
Offline
Joined: 04/08/2012
Greetings Jordan

Glad to have ya here at this part of the internet. Where ever it may be. None the less, it’s a great bunch of knuckleheads here at the website bgdf. Have a look around. Chat with other game designers such yourself or with me or who ever.

For the dice math calculations.
There are more than a few members who looove dissecting those kind of problems. For me, it’s not my thing. I base it off randomness or my own gut feeling about the calculations and it works, if I’m working on a dice game of sorts. Actually I have 2 games I’ve created but there just for home games and won’t be published. Bah, beyond that, or anyways.

Seems like you’ve been a busy bee for the last 10 to 20 years in game design just like the rest of us. Excellent work, sir. I have not heard any of those games before but it’s awesome that you have created them and got them out to the world to see your imagination.

Whelp. I have rambled on once again. Glad to have you here and hope to see what else you have in store in any of the forums.

Bows respectively. Great evening.

Stormyknight1976
Creator of Dymino Monsters

Top
Mon, 09/24/2018 - 21:36
#2
Jordan Laine
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2018
I'm friggin terrible with the

I'm friggin terrible with the social/marketing part of this business that I've mainly just been working with my head in the sand and not telling the world that I'm here making games, outside of my facebook feed and the people that I test on that is. I'm trying to be much better at that even though it is really, really tough for me; I would honestly rather spend the time developing things haha.

Some of the dice probability questions and answers that I've found that kinda fit what I'm looking for are a little over my head ATM but I can tell people go out of their to help and I'm excited to pound my head against it till I get it!

Top
Tue, 09/25/2018 - 07:44
#3
Fertessa
Offline
Joined: 07/18/2018
Welcome tot he forum Jordan!

Welcome tot he forum Jordan! Seems like you're off to a good start. I hope to see you post more about your games here in the future. :)

Top
Tue, 09/25/2018 - 07:48
#4
let-off studios
let-off studios's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/07/2011
Welcome to BGDF

Greetings, Jordan! Hope you enjoy your time here at BGDF.

As Stormy said, you'll be able to gather lots of advice and guidance when it comes to dice calculations. Meanwhile, if you're already familiar with coding and computing, you may be able to bend AnyDice to your will:

https://anydice.com/

One last piece of advice I can offer when it comes to dice probability is that depending on your specific concern, it may be more useful to calculate the chance that a specific result won't happen, instead of banging your head against the wall attempting to code the probability of a specific occurrence.

Best of success to you and your designs, Jordan. :)

Top
Tue, 09/25/2018 - 08:04
#5
wob
Offline
Joined: 06/09/2017
welcome! good luck with

welcome!
good luck with kickstarter and i hope you succeed. there is a huge amount of info and resources for game designers out there (bgg, the dice tower network podcarsts, this forum) as well as specific advice for kickstarter-ers. if that is the route you want to take great (and i dont want to sound negative) but be aware that if you go down that route you will move into the publisher business. great if you are the kind of person who can do that, invoices, supply chains, storing pallet loads of stock etc (im not and have nothing but respect for those who do) but if you just want to be a designer let other people do the publishing (there is also the growing print and play market that is a sort of half way house).

Top
Tue, 09/25/2018 - 10:43
#6
Jordan Laine
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2018
Fertessa, thanks! I'll post

Fertessa, thanks! I'll post some game content soon! I need to make tutorial videos for "Amoeba Sea" and "Count It!" so those may be the next things on the todo list after I get my brain in dice calculating and c++ shape haha.

let-off studios, I adore that tool and when my ship stats were more straightforward it worked really well! But alas, I'm working on balancing 6 different factions all with different ship data now, I think a basic combat sim where I can at least look at all the ship to ship attack probabilities and have variables in that equation that I can adjust on the fly would be very beneficial, I've actually wanted this for a while I just didn't NEED it, well I think I'm to the point where I need it. I'll also be able calc out some other things that I have wanted to know the deep numbers on.

wob, I was tentative about kick starting stuff after I heard some talks at GenCon and realizing that there are more than a few companies out there that handle the shipping, distro, and storage of games all under one roof, it seemed the easiest way to go for at least my micro counting game 'Count It!". Finding the right all-ish in one company seems to be key to being more hands off.

Top
Tue, 09/25/2018 - 16:00
#7
Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
Social Media

If you plan to go down a path of making your own games in your own company, you'd better start working with social media. You need as large a following as possible.

If you really don't want to do that, as you implied, you should probably cultivate relationships with either developers (where you might want to take a salaried position, if you can find one), or publishers (who could do that stuff for you and probably already have a large following). Obviously the long-term rewards are more limited that way :)

Welcome!

Top
Tue, 09/25/2018 - 20:45
#8
Jordan Laine
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2018
Agreed, my LLC has twitter &

Agreed, my LLC has twitter & facebook accounts that were activated in 2010 that I'm WAY more active on after going to GenCon, that was an eye opening trip. Social media is hard for me but not impossible. If "Count It!" gets funded I plan on hiring a part time or paid intern to handle some of the social media load. I also need to attend WAY, WAY more cons.

Top
Wed, 09/26/2018 - 09:35
#9
Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
If you're looking to

If you're looking to Kickstart something, a reasonable question to ask yourself is how you could possibly get to 50% of your funding goal on day 1*.

If Facebook is your primary medium, maybe you could guess you'll covert as much as 10% within the first few days. You won't, but sure, why not be optimistic there. So, if you are selling a game for $19 and you need $6000 to manufacture, that's 300 units.

So, if you were just looking at Facebook to get the word out.. I'd say having a follower count of four digits would be a good goal.

I had an actual marketing budget for my game, including getting a paid preview from GeekDad. I got a total of 6 pledges in the first few days from sites I advertised on in that way (and they were all from GeekDad). So I wouldn't put too many eggs in that basket.

I got a tweet of support from someone with 2 million followers, which resulted in *26* direct purchases (but which pushed me over, and presumably there was follow-on goodwill from that, separate from the boost that hitting your funding goal is worth). With a lower price point product, I assume I would've gotten more, because I was at $59 which creates some natural resistance, but still. 2 million.

And unless you get lucky and KS picks you for special promotion, you're not going to get much that way prior to getting to that 50% mark.

So, get started a year ago :)

.

* Note, I am not someone who thinks that you NEED to hit 50% on day 1 (I didn't, myself), but if there's no plausible path there, you're not ready.

Top
Wed, 09/26/2018 - 15:16
#10
questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
I agree with Jason ... but

I still think most people should be looking for "Publishers" for their games. I know everyone thinks that Kickstarter is the way to go... it isn't. Even my own Publisher says that IF they could go DIRECT ORDERS like Jamey Stegmaier they would... The reasons are multiple, but it's a way of doing business without EVERYONE knowing your business!

KS is great and all... But everyone knows your business. And it's sometimes a pain to keep backers informed about what is going on... You always seem to get someone who wants an update a couple weeks after the last one, etc.

But honestly KS is not the Holy Grail of making and designing games. Selling a game to a Publisher who produces 10,000 units for the game means (in appx. figures) about $10,000 in royalties (with a royalty of about 5% on Wholesale of $20).

So it's not too bad. You've got to realize that Kickstarter sucks out 10%... And that leaves your with about 10% afterwards. Do your math calculations smartly and you'll see you're probably only making 10%. So why go through all that effort ... IF a Publisher can make it much easier to get your game out there, earn some real money and hopefully you can help push your game OVER THE TOP and sell 20,000 units more!

Publishers are also cool because they TALK to other Publishers... If your current Publisher can't take on your NEXT game, they can certainly REFER you to another ... of give you a SHORT LIST of people to talk to... That's also cool... You're part of "the club".

So really I think most games should be talking to Publishers and trying to negotiate a deal: 5% wholesale price is the standard. Our "chris_mancini" designer of "Scrambo!" is in the process of licensing the game he Kickstarted to a Publisher who plans to SELL to WalMart and Target... WalMart alone has over 4,000 stores and he's thinking a 6 units per store PO. That's 24,000 units and ONLY at WalMart!

Anyhow ... don't be discouraged if you have NOT found a Publisher ... YET! It can still happen, and some Publishers will KS your game for you (the smaller ones). But still... Food for thought!

Top
Wed, 09/26/2018 - 16:47
#11
Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
Yeah, particularly if you're

Yeah, particularly if you're a "go to conventions" sort of person. I am not, myself. So putting in the effort (and cash) to do a Kickstarter was the only plausible way forward for me.

But if YOU are, you can build some buzz and get meetings with publishers and see what you can do. It's less potential benefit if you have a big success, but a lot less of your own effort/cash going in up front.

Top
Wed, 09/26/2018 - 17:25
#12
questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
How big is BIG???

Jay103 wrote:
...It's less potential benefit if you have a big success, but a lot less of your own effort/cash going in up front.

You really think going it alone with a KS is more profitable than a Publisher who can manufacture upwards of 10,000 units for a game is better than 500 units from a Kickstarter???

That's like comparing Apples to Gold Bars. Sure you get less... But the Publisher is not retailing the game, they are wholeselling to Distributors and sometimes to stores directly (mostly in the online category ... but none the less).

Plus they handle most of the details... All you do is license the product to them and depending on your relationship, all you do is wait for the payout. Some Publishers can even pay a partial "advance" based on the projected amount of units they plan to make.

So if they make 5,000 units (which is not unreasonable for a Publisher) that means they can maybe advance you $2,500 (50%) and pay you the other 50% when the merchandise is sold.

To be real successful at Kickstarting means that your product/game needs a longer "lifespan". What this means is that either A> Make a ton of different games that are all professional looking and have gamer appeal or B> You can make a ton of expansions for your game to merit continued interest in what you are doing.

"A" is harder because usually you need to come up with "all these games". "B" is easier provided you have a PLATFORM that allow you to create additions in a relatively easy manner (which I think is your case Jason... Your game is very flexible and expandable).

But not all games fit in the "A" category. 2 products/games is not enough. By my estimates it takes probably around five (5) products if you really want to be successful on Kickstarter. And they all got to be STELLAR and SOLID. If you're not growing your fan-base with each release, you've got a serious problem... If all you are doing is tapping into the existing fan-base that is also a problem.

You need to go from 500, 1000, 2500, 5000, 10000+ units. That's sort of what the PROs have done, there are not many of them. Sometimes it's companies like CMON or "Dwarven Forge" ... they make it look easy. But trust me they have TEAMS of people working on making the KS a success. It looks easy... but believe me it's very hard.

So BIG is rather relative to where you are today: at 0. If you do more than 500 for your first game that is AMAZING. Even 350 (Jason's KS was great)... You'll have some inventory to sell online or in your local area.

That's the DREAM. Having a Publisher is another route... And you'll have a TEAM of people trying to make YOUR game the best possible game. So that too is something to consider.

Top
Wed, 09/26/2018 - 18:22
#13
questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Jamey Stegmaier

Jamey fits in Category "A": he's designed a bunch of different games which all fit into categories of games that he did not have in his game library.

He started with Viticulture (942 backers), next Tuscany (an expansion for Viticulture at 4,333 backers), next Euphoria (4,765 backers), next Between Two Cities (5,287 backers), followed by Scythe (17,739 backers), to Charterstone (48,000+ units sold).

So he is a very special persona because he has designed all kinds of different games that are now enjoyed by all different crowds of gamers. I think most Viticulture Fans are NOT Scythe Fans and vice-versa. There may be some "Jamey" fans too who follow what Jamey does.

But even with Jamey, his success was NOT instantaneous. He grew from a strong 1st KS (I must admit 1,000 backer for an independent KS is incredible). And then started to create expansions, resource upgrades for his own games, etc.

He's a BRAND MOGUL. And an extremely ingenious person for creating AND PUBLISHING all those games.

He's not the only one, Jason Glover is another similar designer/artist which has virtually done the SAME but on a smaller scale (Plague, Zogar's Revenge, Four Tribes, etc.) His website is: https://www.greygnome.com

There are others... But my point is you need CONTENT. You need to make multiple games, they all need to be cool/different/fun/interesting for you to grow into the mold of the PROs out-there!

Top
Wed, 09/26/2018 - 18:32
#14
questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
The "B" category...

Well I fit into the "B" category. With my Publisher we Kickstarted about 1,000 units of "TradeWorlds: Exterra Edition". But that's not the end of it. We're producing close to 2,000 units from China with various "configurations". Yeah it's a bit complicated we have 5 different formats that are going to be made soon...

Some formats are Kickstarter ONLY content. Other formats are Retail "core" and a Retail "Expansion collection" (3-in-1).

So as far as expansions are concerned... During the years we've Published three (3) expansions and one (1) "core" game.

Jay103 (Jason) plans are also similar, in that he too wants to ADD content to his PLATFORM children's Dungeon Crawler (Heroes & Treasure).

As far as I am concerned, I still have a BUNCH of Game Expansion ideas. We're probably good for at least 4 to 5 more years and depending on who will be managing the future of "TradeWorlds", all that may be more or less accurate.

Our promise is to deliver interesting content to "TradeWorlds" Game Fans. We just need to see what the future holds for our little game...

Top
Wed, 09/26/2018 - 23:33
#15
Jordan Laine
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2018
questccg wrote:Well I fit

questccg wrote:
Well I fit into the "B" category. With my Publisher we Kickstarted about 1,000 units of "TradeWorlds: Exterra Edition". But that's not the end of it. We're producing close to 2,000 units from China with various "configurations". Yeah it's a bit complicated we have 5 different formats that are going to be made soon...

Some formats are Kickstarter ONLY content. Other formats are Retail "core" and a Retail "Expansion collection" (3-in-1).

So as far as expansions are concerned... During the years we've Published three (3) expansions and one (1) "core" game.

Jay103 (Jason) plans are also similar, in that he too wants to ADD content to his PLATFORM children's Dungeon Crawler (Heroes & Treasure).

As far as I am concerned, I still have a BUNCH of Game Expansion ideas. We're probably good for at least 4 to 5 more years and depending on who will be managing the future of "TradeWorlds", all that may be more or less accurate.

Our promise is to deliver interesting content to "TradeWorlds" Game Fans. We just need to see what the future holds for our little game...

Thanks for all that great info! I have no obligations or commitments with a timeframe atm so I can delay as much as I want if needed. I'd love to talk to publishers but after GenCon and going to a few Kickstarter panels of some seasoned board game dev vets it seemed like I should launch my micro game on KS to at least get my name that's tied to a product out there and to fund the initial printing run. ATM I'm looking at a ~100-150 unit KS so my sales expectations are pretty reasonable IMHO. I'm super new to the publishing side of things and appreciate all the input though!

Top
Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut