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How to speed up game play

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Thu, 06/20/2024 - 10:10
tvandeloo88
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Hi everyone, this is my first post!

I'm trying to resuscitate a game that's been on the back shelf for a while. The game asks players to take three actions per round (morning, afternoon, and evening/night) over seven days by placing a worker at a location and playing a card that matches the time and location (e.g. "beach" location in the "afternoon") to gain points in a particular category (e.g. "relaxation"). It's also worth knowing that locations are restricted in the number of workers that can be placed at each space and that players are trying to reach secret goals in the types and quantities of points that they score. Also, players are encouraged to place their last worker in each round in one of a few restricted locations or else they face a penalty on their first move of the next "day".

The problem is that gameplay is very slow. Play-testers seem to take a long time making decisions about where to place their workers and what card to play to get the points they need. It may be that there are too many variables to parse (location, time of day, category of points, scarcity of locations, end-of-round restrictions). I could reduce the game to 5 days but that won't really solve the slow game-play issues I've seen in playtesting.

Any suggestions that you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Also happy to provide additional details on the game mechanics if that will help.

Cheers!

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Thu, 06/20/2024 - 14:59
#1
Jacob
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What if you tried real-time play?

Welcome to the forum tvandeloo88!

Have you tried a real-time concept?

What if all the players had to play their cards for a "timeframe" (Morning, evening, or night) as fast as they could?

This could reduce the overanalyzing effect you seem to be getting because if I know that my opponent could beat me to a desirable option, I might be more inclined to take the okay option because it is faster than try to overanalyze and then lose out because all the spaces are taken.

You could also instead have a full day play out in real-time instead of one timeframe if a timeframe is too short.

I assume you play your cards in order of morning, evening, and night.

If you need me to elaborate, let me know!

Hope this helps!

- Jacob Bowers

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Thu, 06/20/2024 - 15:32
#2
Fri
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Thoughts

Do you have a good system of iconography (even if it just a letter) so that your players have a shorthand to make decisions quicker?

Is there a way to prune/block branches of the decision tree for your players? Basically give the players less options to consider at one time. Some simple (but inelegant) examples: Reducing the actions and spaces so that they would support two actions a roundand make each action 50% more powerful? Reducing hand size.

Can you introduce "standard" actions, ie actions that do not require a card? This way players can take actions without going through the overhead of reading a cards.

Could you eliminate the end of day placement penalty? This would be one less factor for your players to consider. It will also help if the penalty slows down game play.

Have you asked your play testers why they took a long time to make the decision?

Are your playtester prone to analysis paralysis? No amount of redesigning will overcome this.

More specifics may help.

Good luck with your game.

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Thu, 06/20/2024 - 17:41
#3
tvandeloo88
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Thanks for the ideas!

Jacob, thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. I'm generally not a fan of real-time / dexterity games so I don't think I'll go that direction but your suggestions also made me think that I could have players declare their locations and cards simultaneously at each day break and then use another mechanism to resolve ties / collisions with the 'winning' player getting their desired combo and any 'losing' players forced to land at a 'consolation' space where they get fewer points (or something like that). So if three players chose the same location in the Morning but only two spaces were available then the third player would end up on the consolation space instead (e.g. there were no loungers left at the pool by the time they arrived).

It's also worth noting that spaces remain occupied for the full 'day' so making simultaneous decisions re: the Afternoon, Evening, and Night placements would be informed by the increasingly reduced number of options as each day progressed.

Thanks again for the input - I'll think about this option more to see if it might solve my problem.

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Thu, 06/20/2024 - 17:50
#4
tvandeloo88
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Thanks Fri

Fri, thanks for your questions and input. In answer to your questions:
- Yes, there are icons on the cards and on the board. The icons on the cards tell you what type of points you can collect (and how many), which locations can be used to generate these points, and what time(s) of day you can play the card to get the points. The icons on the board show the types of points available and the number of worker placement spots at each location. I'm sure the iconography can be improved but the basics are there.
- Good ideas about reducing options / pruning the decision tree. Especially your point about eliminating the end of day restrictions - I think that has to go
- I like the 'standard actions' idea too. See my reply to the earlier post in this thread to see how I might handle this. There's already a 'consolation' space on the board but maybe I need more options.
- It's been a while since the last playtest so I may have to dust this one off again (after some adjustments) and do a more thorough retest to get better feedback (but yes, some of them are deeply analytical).

Any other thoughts or reactions you have would be welcome. Thanks again!

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Thu, 06/20/2024 - 21:38
#5
questccg
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KISS: simplicity is always best IMHO!

I would recommend that you use a SAND TIMER to limit the duration of a TURN or at least the time taken to make a "decision". If the timer "expires" the given player is penalized by some kind of "infraction" because they are taking too much time to make their decision. After losing "something", the players will probably speed up their play to ensure that decisions are taken within the allotted time and not dilly-dally with "too much" thinking.

Does your game have a "Victory Point" track or score???

If it does, the penalty could be SIMPLE and be -1 VPs for delaying the game. And the SAND TIMER goes upside down and again a -1 VP could be incurred for the same type of indecision.

Whatever the penalty is... Players will begin to COMPREHEND that their DECISIONS need to be done quicker rather than slower... And the penalties can impact who the winning player is in terms of scoring too!

No need for full Real-Time, just a TIMER to exact the time given to make a decision and a penalty if that time is not obeyed.

Cheers mate!

Note #1: There are 30, 60 and 90 second timers available on the market. From my limited understanding you would probably want something in the middle ergo 60 seconds to make a decision. If that timer expires, the penalty is incurred and the player gets another 60 seconds to make a decision.

And so it becomes a trade-off: sort of like a currency. 60 seconds for a decision costs "X" Victory Points each time a player cannot make a decision within the given time...

Note #2: If you want to be more "draconian", you could have a rule that players have 60 seconds to make their decision and lose "X" VPs if they do not... And then given another 60 seconds and then SKIP their turn if they still cannot make a decision in 2-Minutes.

Something like that could be more severe... But if it works to get the game moving at the correct SPEED... Well then, the problem is solved and with little impact on the rules of your game.

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Fri, 06/21/2024 - 08:30
#6
tvandeloo88
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Thanks for the input

Hey questccg, thanks for the input. I think I'm going to focus on the game mechanics before deciding to work on the players. The timer concept also doesn't really match with the theme of the game - you're on vacation and trying to have the best experiences.

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Fri, 06/21/2024 - 19:09
#7
questccg
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A variation on your theme...

If the theme of your game was taking a CRUISE and you have to plan your exits and entrances to the BOAT... A Sand-Timer would work perfectly. Why? Because you always are stressed not to make it back onto the boat on time after spending hours in-land on beaches, villages or landmarks around the area of travel.

Just saying. It's your game figure out what works best for it.

But it's very hard for us to comment as we don't know the rules to your game and even when we do (see @larienna's thread), we often come to different conclusions on how to improve the game.

Since you are in the driver's seat. It's your duty to figure out what works best...

Cheers!

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Sat, 06/22/2024 - 08:06
#8
X3M
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tvandeloo88 wrote:Hi

tvandeloo88 wrote:
Hi everyone, this is my first post!
Welcome to the forum!

tvandeloo88 wrote:
Play-testers seem to take a long time making decisions about where to place their workers and what card to play to get the points they need. It may be that there are too many variables to parse (location, time of day, category of points, scarcity of locations, end-of-round restrictions). I could reduce the game to 5 days but that won't really solve the slow game-play issues I've seen in playtesting.

Sounds like analysis paralysis to me.
If you let them play multiple games in a row? Does the decision time go down for them?

If yes, they were learning the game. And you can focus on speeding up this proces by making a learning curve.

If the time doesn't go down.
Perhaps less choices in the "first few" days to begin with.
Certain choices might be avaiable later on and thus increase in value if they are needed. You could even remove other choices.

Rule of thumb from my experiences is that the number of choices make the time needed to make a decision grow exponential. This includes possible choices of the opponents and concequences to everyone. So, limiting the choices based on the moment doesn't always work. In order to find out if it works for you, you need to test this out.

***

Real time aspect?
I would have suggested this too in my younger years. But most of my experience in this is that certain choices will not be picked any more if you have too many.

Simoultainiously announcement is a better way. If cards are used, players can place them face down already, for indicating they are finished making a decision.

***

If you like, perhaps you can tell us more about your game.
Basics like the components and number of players.
Theme, intented duration of the game. The rules.
etc.
I am sure there will be plenty of response.

Good luck with your game!
Cheers, X3M

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Sun, 06/23/2024 - 16:43
#9
questccg
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Would be nice to have more details to see HOW(?) we can help...

X3M wrote:
If you like, perhaps you can tell us more about your game...

I agree... If you tell us more about your game and not any specific rules... It could be better to see how we can all "improve" our suggestions. It's hard when you don't know the game in-detail ... But even harder when you only know a few details.

X3M wrote:
I am sure there will be plenty of response.

Don't worry... Nobody is going to "steal" you game ideas. Everyone is pretty much busy with their own projects... I've probably got about a dozen of them.

I'm sure some of the contributors to this thread will reach out with more details and suggestions, given that you share more about your game.

X3M wrote:
Good luck with your game!

Wishing you all the best of success too. Like I said, it's hard to shoot blanks into a bucket of water... You're not really accomplishing much. But if you provide more information, you may get better responses. And it's that kind of help I'm positive you are looking for when you joined BGDF.com.

Cheers!

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Mon, 06/24/2024 - 16:27
#10
tvandeloo88
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More Details

Thanks for all the encouragement folks. As requested, here are some more details about the game:

Players go on vacation on a tropical island for seven days with the objective of gaining as many great experiences (VPs) as they can. There are ten experience categories: Adventures, Dining, Entertainment, Hiking, Natural Wonders, Nightlife, Rest & Relaxation, Shopping, Sightseeing, and Tours. Each player selects a vacation theme that determines what kinds of experiences are most/least important to them (point thresholds for each experience category, above which they can earn bonus points). For example, the ‘Family Vacation’ theme is focused on Adventures, Tours, and Rest & Relaxation with minor points for Entertainment, Natural Wonders, and Sightseeing and no points for Dining, Hiking, Nightlife, or Shopping. Players also select a type of lodging on the island which gives starting points, asymmetric advantages / disadvantages, and dictates turn order.

Players star with a hand of Experience cards, each of which depicts the experience category (see above), the number of points that can be earned, and most importantly which location(s) on the island the card can be played and during which time period(s) each day. For example, the Casino card can be played at any location on the island at any time of day and so is worth only 1 Entertainment point. Conversely the Beach Bonfire card can only be played at one of two locations on the island, and only in the Night time slot so it's worth 8 Nightlife points.

There are twelve locations on the island where players can place a Tourist (meeple). Each location is restricted in the number of Tourists that can be placed there and the types of Experiences that can be gained. For example the capital city can hold up to 5 Tourists (in a 6-player game) and has 7/10 experience categories available but the secluded beach only has two placement spots and 4/10 experience categories.

Play takes place over 7 days, each of which is comprised of four time slots - Morning, Afternoon, Evening, and Night. As you can't have experiences 24/7, players only place Tourist in three out of the four time slots, being forced to pass at least once per day.

In each time slot, players choose to pass or select an experience card from their hand and place it face down. When all players have made a selection the cards are revealed and, in turn order, each player places a Tourist at a location and plays the card to earn points. If a player's choice is no longer available when their turn comes around, they must choose a 'consolation' location to earn fewer (but more flexible) points. Play then moves to the next time slot and so on to the end of the day. At day's end, Tourists are removed from the board, played cards are discarded, and players each draw back up to a full hand of cards.

There are a few more elements that are mostly 'flavour' and don't really impact game play (daily events, special Activity cards that let players earn bonuses or avoid harmful effects, rules about hand management, etc.).

Hopefully that gives you more to work with when thinking about ways to speed up the game. As always, any feedback is great feedback - thanks!

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Mon, 06/24/2024 - 19:37
#11
questccg
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First question so far...

Is there a Victory Point Track???

This is very important and could HELP with the Analysis Paralysis issue if it is NOT present.

Okay so if there is a VP Track ignore the next section...

Why a VP Track could help speed-up game play?!

Quote:
The idea behind the VP Track is to ensure all players have a good idea where they are in terms of leading or trailing in the game. This is important because it could EASE the burden of always trying to MAXIMIZE points rather than scoring enough VPs to take the lead...

If I'm only 2 VPs off the lead this round, that could go higher in terms of the divide (spacing) between player positions (in terms of scoring). So if you are only 2 VPs off the lead in the previous round... You may not want to worry too much and only score +2 VPs and some extra points to take over the LEAD...

See what I mean??? There is a shift in the way of thinking. Players may always want to maximize their points... But if they know who is leading they may be less inclined to do so.

Obviously this is a Worker Placement Game and that's usually leaning to optimal play throughout the game. What I mean is that it is in a bit like Scythe: Combat and conflicts in Scythe only arise near the very end of the game as player duke it out for extra points. But throughout the rest of the game it's all about your meeples and playing them as "optimally" as possible.

So I think that in general, games that require optimal play usually have a tendency of having multiple "solutions" per turn.

And let explain my thoughts to you in a separate section! That's all about the VP Track...

You can make the game EASIER to play by making SIMPLE adjustments to your Vacation Experiences. For example, you say "Capital City" can hold 5 tourists (out of 6) and score 7/10 VPs...

Let me be clear in my explanations (I'll go a bit abstract and then return to the concrete example for better understanding).

questccg wrote:
Having TIERS of experiences is better that out of 10. I'm not saying you should change the Victory Point System (Not at all!), I'm just suggesting that you create TIERS. Like 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 / 10. 5 tiers is my example.

Why do this??? Because it SIMPLIFIES the "problem of meeple placement". With five (5) tiers what you are doing is saying there are five (5) possible scoring points. If there are "3x" "8 VPs" and "1x" "10 VPs" players understand that there is ONLY one HIGHEST SCORE and they can easily PLAN for a "consolation" spot... (1 of the 3x 8 VPs), etc.

So TIERS and less MATH is one possibility. You may also want VPs to go from 1 to 5 STARS as a RATING for the experience (which is VERY THEMATIC TBH!) A 5/5 is the greatest experience and a 1/5 is the worst experience... That's also something your should consider...

THE MATH... Computing scoring out of 10 is MUCH harder than out of 5... Yes in some instances people do use the "out of 10" ratings... But most of the time they are "out of 5" and this EASES the MATH. It's easier to comprehend that I can't get "1x 5/5" so I choose one of the "3x 4/5"... Plus it makes the game that much more TIGHTER... So that's ONE REASON. But not the only reason.

POSSIBLE OUTCOMES: out of 5 vs. out of 10.

Here we see that the number of OUTCOMES is lowered in the "out of 5" case. You only have FIVE (5) VP scores to deal with. This is NOT MATH. It's a question of ANALYSIS that RESTRICTS the amount of POSSIBILITIES when trying to figure out where to place MEEPLES.

This is another REASON that can AFFECT "Analysis-Paralysis" (AP) and HALVE the amount of outcomes that are possible, making the game much QUICKER to analyze.

As I explained in the previous section, AP occurs probably for a few reasons not just one. MATH and OUTCOMES all contribute to the AP situation. Then you need to analyze further what scores more for YOU (asymmetry).

I LIKE your 3 out of 4 Time Periods. That's cool and smart.

But "Sightseeing" and "Tour" seem like SIMILAR experiences. I get it: one is guided the other is on-your-own. I'm just seeing if there is CONSISTENCY and a need for all 10. You could consider dropping one of these two (2) Experiences and see if it makes a difference too. This is something to consider... Just remember it (in case)...

That's it for now... Let me think about it some more and see what ELSE might come up and hit me.

I think the MATH and OUTCOMES is what is REALLY killing your game. I've explained WHY(?) and HOW(!) to fix it. I would highly recommend giving it a TRY before dismissing the suggestions to HELP fix your game. Less MATH and TIERS (1 out of 5) would go a long way in SIMPLIFYING HOW(!) players make their decisions.

Cheers and let's see what others think!

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Wed, 06/26/2024 - 11:38
#12
Fri
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Actions only in adjacent spaces

More details gave me one idea that would limit player choices to speed up game play. Arrange the board in such away that the rest location is at the center of the board (I am going to call this the hotel) and all of the other locations form a circle around. Players start each day in the hotel and can rest or move to any adjacent location. There after they can only move to a location that is adjacent to thier current location and possibly stay where they are.

This location selection method does provide the same scarcity as worker placement. To make up for this I would introduce souvenirs. Souvenirs score points according to some tbd set collection rules. Each location is seeded with a certain number of souvenirs each day according to player count. (Think of the way that the board is populated with hexes in Castles of Burgundy but with different counts). When a player takes an action at a location they can pick up a souvenir. When all souvenirs at a location have been picked up, players can still take actions there, but they can't pick up a souvenir. You would want to tweak your points so that tweaked full points=consolation points and make up the difference with souvenir points. Another possibility is that a player could go to a location just to get a souvenir and not take an action. Ticket to Ride San Francisco uses a similar souvenir scoring idea.

This scheme also does not include your concept of resting for one phase per day. So my idea for this is to guide the players to do this using carrots and maybe a stick. When players rest they return to the hotel location would could give them several benefits:

Their next action they can go anywhere on the island.

They have increased flexibility in the future since they will have more cards in hand.

Optionally they could become first in turn order.

Optionally players get more cards perhaps with some form of draft, being the first to rest gets you first choice.

Optionally players that are last in the turn order/have not rested get an exhaustion token. Exhaustion tokens do bad things like lower your score.

Maybe you can use these ideas, even if you don't like the action restriction.

Feel free to use disregard or improve upon.

Good luck with your game.

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Wed, 06/26/2024 - 13:13
#13
larienna
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Maybe there is the issue that

Maybe there is the issue that people need to re-analyze the board after every card play since the board changed too much. In this case, you can make the board more stable or reduce the number of times they must analyze the board.

Here is a few solutions:

A: 1 player at a time: It might not fit with your game, but each player could play all his 4 actions on his turn. Could lead to to many changes between players, making forward planning impossible.

B: Players program their cards for the entire day. You do the heavy thinking once. It could make the last cards in the list hard to forward plan depending on the game. Else, you can give each card a compensation action, if they cannot do what they intended to do due to a situation change, they can use the compensation.

C: Players play only 1 or 2 cards per turn.

D: Add constraints. Maybe the card played restraints the cards you can play next, narrowing down the possibilities. Planning chains of actions in advance would be the strategy.

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Thu, 06/27/2024 - 08:52
#14
tvandeloo88
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Lots of good ideas!

Everyone, thanks for all the input and ideas. Some fit with my concept of the game while others would require some significant re-engineering. I'm going to take your input, make a few tweaks, and get the game back on the table for more playtesting. If it's still suffering from slow play, it may be time for some more radical changes along the lines that have been suggesting in this thread.

Cheers!

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