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Spicing up the Simple: analysis

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Thu, 03/11/2010 - 15:08
Taavet
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I once heard Dragonball described as a fight between opponents where one powers up, then the other, then the first powers up more, then the other again, then the first once more...until one prevails (usually the good guy).

I have also thought about games where you basically do the same thing ('grind' as it's termed in online games). So the typical RPG grind (board or video) is basically, get stronger and develop more abilities, fight stronger opponents where the opponents are basically your equal minus one so you can win.

So when a system is primarily repetitive in its most basic form as described above what is it that makes it appealing to do over and over or exciting to watch/play?

Is it the story?
Is it the character/game development?
Is it the social interaction, or the competitive nature of it?
Is it the process of honing a skill by repetition?
When does a roll 'n' move game becomee more then rolling and moving over and over?
How does picking a tile and laying it over and over become something more than an exercise?

I hope to create a good discussion with maybe a few examples that we can either analyze together or some new designs that we could spice up in various ways to develop various outcomes.

I know in general this is part of the process that we each go through with every design but are there some elements we can better define? Story arc, tension, ect?

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Thu, 03/11/2010 - 15:23
#1
larienna
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Dragon ball follow an story

Dragon ball follow an story telling idea called "the battle". It consist of using the following sentense all the time:

"My -insert word here- is stronger than yours"

For example:

My powers are stronger than yours
My robot is stronger than your
My Pokemon is stronger than your
etc.

We also said that this series follow this algorithm:

If you are not powerful enought, train again.
If your defeat your opponent, go to the next opponent.

By the way, somebody summarize an epic battle that last 50 episodes in 1:30 min on you tube

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Thu, 03/11/2010 - 17:34
#2
Arvin
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Taavet wrote:So when a system

Taavet wrote:
So when a system is primarily repetitive in its most basic form as described above what is it that makes it appealing to do over and over or exciting to watch/play?

Is it the story?
Is it the character/game development?
Is it the social interaction, or the competitive nature of it?
Is it the process of honing a skill by repetition?
When does a roll 'n' move game become more than rolling and moving over and over?
How does picking a tile and laying it over and over become something more than an exercise?

Actually I think It's all of it... every little detail is important. It's what makes a game special. the only difference is the varying portions of what you said, plus more. It's more like player preference. When someone is interested in some genre they go for it, no matter how it turns out to be.

I'll give a good example: Risk (If you know what I'm talking about)

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Fri, 03/12/2010 - 00:25
#3
Lofwyr
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Joined: 02/16/2010
Simple

Its all about a sense of accomplishment.

Wow is a perfect example of this. Offer the player the ability to succeed after accomplishing work, like real life. Now offer them a variety of ways to succeed that make them feel like only THIER choices could accomplish that goal.

I’m higher level than allot of other people. My gear is better than most people my level. I kill lots of people when I PVP. I do a lot more damage than I used to. Etc etc…

Accomplishment...can’t be too easy...can’t be too hard. A perfect balance of this in an entertaining platform is the basis of every good game in history.

E

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Fri, 03/12/2010 - 01:00
#4
JaytotheROC
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Just look at MMORPGs

It is a bizare phenomenon. One that you can see en-masse when it comes to video games. Games like World of Warcraft, Evony, or even good ol' fashioned Civilization are games where 99% of your time is grinding away at making your situation slightly better. I believe that these games become apealing because the player gains a sense of ownership of their character/empire/what have you. And they want to make their unique or special in some way by making it as good as possible. In addition to this the slow monotonous grind is something that takes some thought, but is largely a 'brain-dead' activity (one might equate this to watching television, or working on a repetitive job/task). It is an activity that you need to think about, but that you don't have to concentrate too hard on.

People's minds are built to enjoy this kind activity, and the fact that they get a sense of 'improving' thier situation only adds to it.

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Fri, 03/12/2010 - 12:35
#5
Taavet
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Thanks

Ownership and Accomplishment are definately good aspects of a game.

Definately more apparent in video games. But in a board game where it only lasts about an hour or two and then the next time you play its completely different might be different.

So is there a generally acceptable amount of grinding before it becomes too repetitive and the little bit of accomplishment is meaningless? Again I think this aspect might apply more to video games than board games. If the board game does become drudgery at least it only lasts an hour or two.

I guess along the same lines what is it that makes certain games or forms of entertainment addicting? You just gotta play once more, or have to finish this level, or understand now how you could do so much better.

Maybe the questions are too broad because as mentioned I don't think its one thing. A combination:

Competitiveness
Accomplishment
Ownership
Enjoyment
Social (although solitaire games can be addicting)

I think all the smaller things like story, characters, mechanics, tension all fall under enjoyment. Is there another overal big factor to a successful game design?

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Fri, 03/12/2010 - 20:21
#6
JaytotheROC
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Another key element in

Another key element in addictive games is the lack of stopping points. I believe this is especially important when it comes to a grinding type of game as even if you're getting a bit bored of the task there is always something else you can do, and not real moment where you're like "I can stop now, and pick this up later" or "I think that'e enough for tonight"

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Tue, 03/30/2010 - 10:21
#7
Gamingnutrpg
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The game of Grind

First time post long time reader....

I have to say the any game where you grind...do the same thing over and over again...may not be a game that lasts long. How many time has someone here played Monopoly and just got up and quit after 2 hours of play because its the same thing. Roll randomly around track, buy property, pay rent, build housing, rinse repeat. Sooner or later you have to stop and examine what could make this less of a grind.

Setting up time limits or end games is always make the grind less obtuse since you realise the game will end. But games like Risk are hard for teh average player as games that take hours to play usually aren't suggested (I should know I ask to play risk every week and none of my friends want to but then Im a strategy gamer at heart).

Then again if you have a game that have no grinding at all, each round denotes different plays tyle or different rules set, may be too chaotic for its own good.

In the end there needs to be a balance between the two and thats where the hardest of all balances come into play. I love games where the rules can change from hand to hand (Fluxx or even Munchkin) and hate linear games (Life is a good example). In my games I try to make the game play a bit of a grind with a touch of chaos to make it interesting from round to round. It's tough line to balance on and I would have to say that is my biggest problem as a designer (and of course the mechanics to be as unique as possible).

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