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I need suggestions for organising my videogame ideas.

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X3M
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polyobsessive wrote:questccg

polyobsessive wrote:
questccg wrote:
I don't think the OP was finding a job as a Game Designer

Yeah, the discussion went in a different direction very quickly. The OP was mostly about how to record ideas and talking about a standard format for noting them down that could be useful for both boardgames and videogames. I've found the thread interesting reading though.

This shows how helpful the community can be. We are all thinking ahead for him. (Well, I wasn't in my first post. But still.)

Give the kid some credit. He doesn't know yet how the real world works.

***

"Idea" people are often the older guys that have experienced a lot of jobs that support the idea guy.
Each of them started at the bottom. And know how the company in a whole works. They can put together the right jobs, with the right interactions, to make a whole >working< company.

In other words. You start a job at a company. Then you have to grow to be the boss of the company. And on that road, you fill in other jobs of that company. So, you know at the top what you are doing.

A good boss does all jobs, directly or indirectly.

That reminds me, how good are your communication skills?
Are you good to persuade other people to help you in real life? I am not talking about doing some simple questions of "help me with 'something' ". But more in the trend of using tactical words that will persuade people to help you with pleasure. No matter how bad the job is.

questccg
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X3M wrote:A good boss does

X3M wrote:
A good boss does all jobs, directly or indirectly.

I have to disagree with you Ramon. Bosses don't know all jobs... They are "managers". They know how to deal with people. A good Project Manager knows how to work with his Developers. And usually what that means is earning their trust. But he cannot do the job of a Developer. His focus is to make sure that the milestone will be delivered on time and that the feature set is more or less what was planned for. If there are delays, his job is to reassess the scope of that specific milestone given input from the Developers.

Most managers do not have the skill set of Developers or Artists.

Management and upper management is all about working with people: people in committees, people in the office, people in HR, people in public (because sometimes managers need to give presentations). And they are held accountable for the overall success or failure of a project. Obviously failures are rare, because good managers know how to manage scope creep and are experienced with re-aligning scope (when there are delays or errors in judgement).

If you want to be a "boss" - first you must become a manager (of something) and then you will need to work on your people skills. The more "relatable" you are as a person, the better odds you will succeed as a manager.

It's not infrequent that Developers become the Lead Developer and play a closer role of keeping an eye out for what the Project Manager budget and timeline look like. Sometimes a Lead Developer may become a Project Manager. But it is not always the case, they may stay specialized as a Technical resource (like Lead) - but work on larger projects.

Artists are usually too involved with "Creativity" to transition to Management roles. Their focus is usually to design better artwork by improving their own skills. Art is subjective - so doing it better may mean using less time, more precision, etc.

So no a "Good Boss" doesn't DO all the jobs. He understands and has good people working for him. His focus is one having superior "People Skills" and handling the overall project (budget and deliverables). If he is "Good" he also has a great understanding about delegation and working with key personnel on the projects he is piloting.

Most of the times it is like a Pyramid, but sometimes it can be more lateral. Meaning upper management deals with middle management and middle management deals with technical resources and people responsible for doing the deliverable work.

The old-school way used to be you start at the bottom and work your way up.

Today this is not true. Upper managers have a network and are known for handling certain types of projects. They sometimes work on multiple projects but they work inter-team with say a Sales Director, who is responsible for a team of sales specialists or a Product Director, who is responsible for a team of Developers, artists, etc.

This is very different from working your way up. Basically once you make the transition between a technical role to a management position - you are probably going to slowly move up in the workplace because as a manager you will be leading different projects which are either more specific, more complex, or more costly.

X3M
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That is why "indirectly" has

That is why "indirectly" has a place in that sentence.
With indirectly I meant that that someone does the job for the boss. The boss "simply" manages this since he/she knows what the employee is doing in a sumarized way. Not specific in details of course. But the goal is known by the boss.

It differs for each job and company. I am not really familiar with programming as such. But the company where I currently work (something entirely different from programming) has great benefits if our boss knows what his/her people can do. In other words. Combining the jobs in the right way for the greater good.
As a boss, you need to know what your people can and cannot do. There is a set goal. And divided in smaller goals that are divided amongst the right people.

What you mentioned about working your way up in the company is sadly true :(
Getting into a network is darn hard on itself. Than you need to manage that too. And keep expanding.

Willem Verheij
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questccg wrote:Willem Verheij

questccg wrote:
Willem Verheij wrote:
I know they don't set out to make a bad story, but I do feel that many games underestimate the value of the story and of good voice acting.

Are you saying Blizzard's Starcraft and Starcraft II did not have sufficiently compelling storylines? I for one player Starcraft and I was fully immersed into the story - so much so I would spend countless hours trying to reach the next level - just so that the animated sequences would play and the storyline would be slowly revealed.

If you criticize someone's game - the onus is on YOU to make a BETTER one.

Just saying game X, Y, and Z are all crappy - is like calling the kettle black. Big deal... At least those people developed their ideas - they did something.

What I'm trying to say is this: "Ideas, good or bad, are not enough. You need to produce something of value that is concrete."

By doing this - you are take steps in the right direction. No doubt the project will change from the outset - but that's another thing: bending to the demands of the team, changing the feature set based on the timeline, etc.

Have not played starcraft, but was not impressed story wise by diablo 3 and the entire warcraft setting looks like an utter mess. They really just toss everything they can think of in there it seems, wether it fits the setting or not.

Blizzard certainly is a talented studio, I respect them for many reasons, but story is not one of them.

Bioware was pretty amazing with stories in their earlier years though. They peaked with Jade Empire in my opinion, it is the only game so far that nearly brought me to tears.
It had a great sense of humor to it, but also handled dramatic parts nicely, and there where some very touching moments in it.

They also managed to surpass all star wars movies with KOTOR, story wise. They explored more mature themes and the shades of grey within the force.

Medievil also had a very unique story, with a lot of humor to it. Great delivery by the voice actors helps a lot here too. The story suited the style of the game perfectly.

Willem Verheij
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X3M wrote:polyobsessive

X3M wrote:
polyobsessive wrote:
questccg wrote:
I don't think the OP was finding a job as a Game Designer

Yeah, the discussion went in a different direction very quickly. The OP was mostly about how to record ideas and talking about a standard format for noting them down that could be useful for both boardgames and videogames. I've found the thread interesting reading though.

This shows how helpful the community can be. We are all thinking ahead for him. (Well, I wasn't in my first post. But still.)

Give the kid some credit. He doesn't know yet how the real world works.

***

"Idea" people are often the older guys that have experienced a lot of jobs that support the idea guy.
Each of them started at the bottom. And know how the company in a whole works. They can put together the right jobs, with the right interactions, to make a whole >working< company.

In other words. You start a job at a company. Then you have to grow to be the boss of the company. And on that road, you fill in other jobs of that company. So, you know at the top what you are doing.

A good boss does all jobs, directly or indirectly.

That reminds me, how good are your communication skills?
Are you good to persuade other people to help you in real life? I am not talking about doing some simple questions of "help me with 'something' ". But more in the trend of using tactical words that will persuade people to help you with pleasure. No matter how bad the job is.

I know quite well how the world works, and I also know quite well that gatekeepers can be avoided.

Either way this topic seems to have turned too much about how to get into the gaming industry instead of helping me with my checklist of things I want to put on it.

My old friend simply offered to make use of his contacts at some gaming companies to see if someone there would be willing to hear me out on my ideas.
Hence I prepare for that so I can present it properly when needed.

If its all rejected or they wont even agree to hear what I have to say, then thats simply the end of it.
But if they are willing to listen and it might get me a job, any job at all, I'd be quite happy with that since I currently dont have much work.

The right ideas can be worth a lot of money. I am not looking to get rich or anything, I just want to get work thats enough to live decently of.

My only real talent is my creativity, so I'm putting that to work since I am not finding any job in retail. First I was not hired due to not having several years of experience in the exact type of store I would apply to, and later I was deemed too old already.
The economic crisis has not helped either, and often store managers tend to put relatives and friends in there even if they are incompetent.

I did follow a course in scenario writing and that is my main persuit. I got my degree earlier this year and made a short movie a few weeks ago during a course in Amsterdam which did lead to a few connections but no step further yet.

I'm still invisible, and with no contacts yet that can help me ahead. So my goal is to become visible. Get my name on work. But aside from writing a book, I cant do that alone.

I am currently writing a book because thats the only thing available to me on my own. Anything else will require more people. Wether its for a movie or other scripted content, a videogame or whatever, its nothing I can do alone.

I'd rather write scripted content, but that requires studios to respond to my e-mails. Hence I want to get my name out there a bit more.

Squinshee
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Create a Game Design Document

Create a Game Design Document (GDD) for each game concept you have. All developers use these because they reflect the vision of the game. All aspects of design should be in line with the GDD. As development continues, two things happen: aspects change to better fit the GDD or the GDD is adjusted to reflect changes. That way it's always up-to-date and remains the lens of which all facets of development look through when creating. When you ask for someone's help when designing, the best thing to show them is the GDD because it outlines your intent. Without it, people may suggest all sorts of random ideas that don't mesh with the goal and criteria you desire.

Ex: you're designing a balanced, competitive fighting game. No one will suggest adding experience points and unlockable special moves if they read your affiliated GDD (unless they know absolutely nothing about balanced competitive games).

Creating these will also show that you understand how the business works and will help position yourself as more than an "idea" guy.

Edit: I'm the kind of person that thinks everyone (myself included) is a piece of $#!¥ that knows absolutely nothing until proven otherwise. Talk is cheap and the proof is in the proverbial pudding, preferably tapioca.

BoardGent
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Organization for games

Hope this will be helpful, but the way I do it for board games is this:
Create two* documents. One titled (video) games, and one for each game you have. Create quick summaries for each game in the games document for quick reference if you're trying to find one specific one. In the same document, create a table of contents with each video game idea/title displayed. If you create a bookmark on summary title/paragraph, you can hyperlink to it to save on navigation time.
The second* document will be the expanding on the summary and will largely be the main document you'd show to people. If you want to efficiently present your idea, something like the following format might be a good idea:
Title:
Game type:
offline / online
single player / vs / coop / team vs
Quick summary:
Objective:
Setting:
Interesting mechanics

Something like this should tell people what they need to know most about your game, and make it easy to understand as well.

*assumes only one game. Will need more documents for each game / game idea you have.

Willem Verheij
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I've been working on writing

I've been working on writing down all the details, but it seems to be quite a tricky thing to write down the gameplay in an organised manner, not too different from writing a manual for a boardgame I think.

It seems to work just fine for games which are just a fighter or such, because the gameplay is mainly just fighting.

But right now I am writing down the gameplay elements for an MMO. And that tends to have a lot more to it. Otherwise people won't keep playing it.

So there really is a lot of ground to cover here, and I want to write down the gameplay in an orderly fasion.

I mean.. there's the combat, rewards, classes, races, death, quests, pvp, guilds, equipment, transportation, communication.. and a lot of it tends to intersect.

radioactivemouse
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Ditch the MMO.

Willem Verheij wrote:
I've been working on writing down all the details, but it seems to be quite a tricky thing to write down the gameplay in an organised manner, not too different from writing a manual for a boardgame I think.

It seems to work just fine for games which are just a fighter or such, because the gameplay is mainly just fighting.

But right now I am writing down the gameplay elements for an MMO. And that tends to have a lot more to it. Otherwise people won't keep playing it.

So there really is a lot of ground to cover here, and I want to write down the gameplay in an orderly fasion.

I mean.. there's the combat, rewards, classes, races, death, quests, pvp, guilds, equipment, transportation, communication.. and a lot of it tends to intersect.

I'm fairly certain you have no clue how much work is needed to develop a game with the scope of an MMO. I'm not saying this to put you down, I'm just letting you know the truth behind developing an MMO.

Believe me, I worked on 2: World of Warcraft and another smaller one called Trickster Online. Both required immense amount of work, required a TON of people, and cost a TON of money.

Stuff like this doesn't take one person. It takes MANY MANY people.

If I were you, I'd develop a small game, then work your way up. Drop the MMO idea and work on something that's achievable. An MMO requires time, work, and money...especially money. You won't realize anything if you have little money.

Plus you have to think about trends. An MMO business model has been proven to be unreliable, with the ONLY exception of WoW. In addition, companies are moving away from investing in any MMO idea because it has little to no return (if any). Most of the MMO's that have released since WoW went live have gone belly-up. Tabula Rasa? Gone. Age of Conan? Gone. City of Villains/Heroes? Also gone. Those companies had millions of dollars and the best talent and they couldn't compete with WoW.

How did WoW do it? It had already established 10 Game of the Year titles BEFORE Wow. In addition, the MMO space was only occupied by a scant few games...all of which were bare at best. Blizzard struck at the right time and had the right momentum.

Even WoW's "next" MMO project ended up becoming Overwatch.

Even Lord of the Rings Online, which has a bigger fanbase than WoW, couldn't topple the juggernaut.

Sorry, I talk to many students about developing an MMO. It's the same conversation, just like this one. I'm not saying forget it, I'm saying build up to it. I'm telling you, just developing a 1 hour game is going to take you an immense amount of time.

Go through the process of just making a simple card game...you'll learn far less fatal lessons than if you went straight to an MMO.

Willem Verheij
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Yeah yeah, I get it. I cant

Yeah yeah, I get it. I cant achieve anything so shouldn't try. But it should already be clear by now that I will be writing all this down no matter what anyone tells me.
I have all these ideas, and I just have to write them down. It's a very strong urge.

So how to write down many gameplay aspects in an orderly fasion? I do think it is a valid question and something that could very much help me when writing down boardgame concepts too.

X3M
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I already had the feeling

I already had the feeling that you would do so any way, no matter what they say, when I first reacted to this topic. So the first one was my direct answer to how I did things.
And frankly, I thought, let the kid get burned just once to learn. That is how the best are raised in our country.

So...

Maybe you would like to try the following:

Just write things down as orderly as you can.

For one idea.

Then share this idea, here, on this forum, with full context.

You probably get things pointed out a lot on the idea itself. But another part would be, for you to ask: "Can it be written more orderly?"

Also, parts will probably be questioned since mechanics need to be applied.

Will your idea contain possible mechanics as well? Or just be an idea?

***

If it hasn't been said before yet.

You might want to imagine how it would be like, to be working on a game with the idea with notching but the idea as source. I bet that if it isn't your idea, but from someone else's, that you have no idea how they truly envisioned the idea.

Ask yourself, will game programmers stick 100% to the idea?

***

Now, your plan was to share lots of idea's. Right?
While here, some do this as a hobby; pointing out mistakes etc. You might have noticed that some idea's + mechanics get really long discussion threads.
1 long discussion thread about 1 idea.

You will be taking a professionals time in the same way?
With a lot of idea's?

All I can say is: be verrry wearrry about whoever it is. When they ask you to invest money. If they suddenly like an idea.

radioactivemouse
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burning gears.

Willem Verheij wrote:
Yeah yeah, I get it. I cant achieve anything so shouldn't try. But it should already be clear by now that I will be writing all this down no matter what anyone tells me.
I have all these ideas, and I just have to write them down. It's a very strong urge.

So how to write down many gameplay aspects in an orderly fasion? I do think it is a valid question and something that could very much help me when writing down boardgame concepts too.

Brushed off...again. Not uncommon for me, mind you, just giving my two cents on this matter.

Still, I said my peace. I think you could learn a lot from my experience in MMOs, but it's obvious you've chosen your path. Good luck in your endeavors :)

Willem Verheij
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X3M wrote:I already had the

X3M wrote:
I already had the feeling that you would do so any way, no matter what they say, when I first reacted to this topic. So the first one was my direct answer to how I did things.
And frankly, I thought, let the kid get burned just once to learn. That is how the best are raised in our country.

So...

Maybe you would like to try the following:

Just write things down as orderly as you can.

For one idea.

Then share this idea, here, on this forum, with full context.

You probably get things pointed out a lot on the idea itself. But another part would be, for you to ask: "Can it be written more orderly?"

Also, parts will probably be questioned since mechanics need to be applied.

Will your idea contain possible mechanics as well? Or just be an idea?

***

If it hasn't been said before yet.

You might want to imagine how it would be like, to be working on a game with the idea with notching but the idea as source. I bet that if it isn't your idea, but from someone else's, that you have no idea how they truly envisioned the idea.

Ask yourself, will game programmers stick 100% to the idea?

***

Now, your plan was to share lots of idea's. Right?
While here, some do this as a hobby; pointing out mistakes etc. You might have noticed that some idea's + mechanics get really long discussion threads.
1 long discussion thread about 1 idea.

You will be taking a professionals time in the same way?
With a lot of idea's?

All I can say is: be verrry wearrry about whoever it is. When they ask you to invest money. If they suddenly like an idea.

I do plan to write down mechanics of the game too, within reason. Pretty much I try to write down the full concept of each these ideas.

Whoever I end up pitching the concept to, I want to give plenty to work with. I want to show that I have given it a lot of thought and worked out the details.

Clearly not the smallest details like how much damage an attack does, an entire book on the story or writing down the full movesets of fighting game characters.

But still pretty detailed.

Using a fighting game as an example, I would write down the short version of the story behind it, how the combat mechanics work, I would explain the various available game modes since I'd want to offer something new there, and I could make a quick list of the roster with basic information about each fighter.

Their name, fighting style, short physical description and their backstory in a few sentences.

Many things would be likely to change either way through development, and that should happen when working with a team since you'd all work together to make it better. I'd want that and am quite open to that. But I also want to give plenty to work with.

Showing my fully written down game concepts here I am not too sure about though. I know it could help a lot, but I do try to keep the info about them rather private for the usual reasons.
If I would share one, it would not be the concept I consider to be the best.

What I can say though is that I dabble a lot in uncovered ground such as using the classical period setting for genres other than strategy and city building. I am also exploring the middleground between sandbox RPG where you can be anyone and any class, and the RPG where you have little say in who or what your character is.
I am also exploring new game modes for fighting games that will add greatly to the replayability.
I am also exploring the possibilities of some older gametypes that have not been made in a long time which would greatly benefit from the advances made with online options.

The movies for example was a game that suffered a lot due to youtube not being a thing yet. If it was released some years later it could have done a lot better because the game is all about making your own movies. Right now it is a lot easier to share that.

X3M
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Secrecy

I understand that you want to keep things secret.

Instead of sharing one that is your idea. What if you give a practise example of an existing game?

Willem Verheij
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That could work too. I'll use

That could work too. I'll use the original Mario Bros game as an example since its quite basic.

What's it about?
It's a sidescrolling platformer where the hero, Mario, has to fight through eight different worlds to save the princess. He encounters many different enemies along the way but has a few power ups to help him on his journey.

How does the gameplay work?

Mario moves through the screen from left to right and can't go back. This is done to keep the player moving because there is a time limit, reaching the end before the time is up is part of the challenge.

Mario has to jump over pits and onto higher platforms to move through the level, and also has to avoid or defeat enemies that will kill him by touching him. Some are capable of throwing projectiles which also need to be avoided.

Walking mushroom enemies can be defeated by jumping on them.
Turtles become harmless when jumped on, and their shell can then be pushed to defeat anything in their way, but they will bounce back against walls.
Hedgehogs can't be jumped on so cant be defeated in a normal way.
Fish can't be jumped on in water levels, because mario cant jump there.

During his journey, Mario can jump under blocks to look for hidden power ups. Blocks with question marks on them contain coins, and sometimes a power up. When Mario gathers 100 coins, he gains a life and starts at zero again.

There are four power ups in the game:
-Red mushroom. Mario gets twice as big and can break normal blocks when jumping under them, he also wont die but becomes small when hit.
-Green mushroom. Mario gets an extra life from this.
-star. Mario becomes temporary invincible when picking it up, he will glow and can defeat all enemies by touch while he glows. He starts to glow slightly less when the powerup is about to end.
-Flower. When Mario is big, he gets a flower when he otherwise would get a mushroom. A flower gives Mario the ability to shoot fireballs, that can kill almost every enemy.

Only beetles, which work the same as turtles, are immune to fire.

There are also pipes through all levels, that Mario can try to enter to find a secret area that also works as a shortcut, allowing him to gather coins and skip a part of the level.
Some pipes have flesh eating plants pop out of them, so Mario can only stand on the pipe when the plant goes back in the pipe. They wont come out when Mario stands on the pipe.

At the end of each level, Mario has to jump on a flagpole to finish it. The higher he jumps on the pole, the more points he gets, the remaining time also adds to his points. He then enters the small castle next to the flagpole and a star flag appears on top of it.

Each world has four levels, the fourth is always a castle level. They have few enemies but have many fire obstacles that Mario must avoid. At the end of the level is a bridge and a fire spewing dragon. If Mario has the fireflower he can kill it by shooting a lot of fireballs, but normally he has to jump over it on the handle of the bridge to remove it so the dragon falls into the lava below.

The game is made specifically for the NES videogame system so is using its controlls.

Diagonal controlls are used to move left and right.
A button is used to jump, and needs to be pressed for every swimming motion when in the water.
B button is used to shoot fire, and when pressed in allows for running.
Start button pauses the game.

Why would people want this game?
It allows the player to move through large worlds and overcome many obstacles. ((my apologies for not being able to bring this part that well to words, I was only 4 years old or such at the time so know little about the market at the time.))

What makes it unique?
((again, I can't explain this part for this game because I was too young to truly know. Was the first videogame I really played too.))

What are the possibilities for additional content?
Sequels can be made if the game proves succesfull, exploring new worlds and adding new enemies and power ups.

If it has multiplayer, how does it work?
The game can be played by two players. Whenever a player beats a level or dies, it is the other player's turn. Unless one of the players lost all their lives, then only one player remains.

What is the story?
Evil dragon king Bowser has kidnapped Princess Peach from the Mushroom kingdom. Mario, a heroic plumber, goes after her to save his girlfriend.

--------------------------------------------

That's pretty much how I am writing my concepts down. Though I do tend to add an "additional content" section below all of this to list all fighters if its a fighting game with their most basic info, or the factions in a strategy game again with their basic info or even available armies.
Or more info about playable classes and races.

Controlls kind of depend on the game if I list it or not, and I might not list all of them. Only when it seems relevant.
I wont list it if its a game that would work equally well on pc or consoles, like an adventure game for example.

Fighters tend to be for consoles so I can follow that approach. Some do appear on PC but they tend to be ports of the console game.

And strategy games tend to be for PC so for those I'd keep that in mind.

Either way I do consider the buttons and how it could work. If a new gameplay element in a fighter would require a solution to work it into the typical controll scheme, I want to give that.
If for example, a fighter is made where you can switch between many fighting styles or weapons, that would require a smooth solution to be presented as well so its easy to switch and does not hinder gameplay.

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