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My rule draft for the coop steampunk game

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Wed, 06/12/2024 - 13:46
#31
questccg
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I have noticed one thing ...

It seems like your "designing" is borrowing parts from different games and trying to assemble them into a "new" game.

You said in this last message:

larienna wrote:
Many ideas in my Eldritch Express game comes from elder sign... I think Marvel D.A.G.G.E.R have a similar system, I would need to check it out again...

And you said that some ideas came from "Arkham Horror" too...

I wonder if that is the SOURCE of your "Blocking"??? And I don't do this.

What I mean is that I may "borrow" a mechanic or some facet of an existing game but I don't TRY TO GLUE all kinds of OTHER GAMES TOGETHER. That for certain would NEVER work. And I'm thinking while reading these threads... What is ORIGINAL in this GAME that YOU CREATED???

And all I keep reading is: "I borrowed this & that from this game... I borrowed that from that game... etc."

No wonder why you are getting BLOCKED! At some point you need to STOP GLUEING and start DESIGNING. What do I mean? Use your OWN inspiration to fill-in the gaps. And try less to focus on too many pieces from other games.

From everything I've seen and the code you sent me (D Language) is that you are merely BORROWING too much from too many different sources. And that's why you are getting "poor" or "undesirable" results.

Take for example, my "Crystal Heroes":

questccg wrote:
It's a Tile Laying game on a 5 x 5 dynamic grid.

At first my inspiration was "The Duke". But I made a DIFFERENCE, my Tiles DO NOT MOVE. So immediately there is a SIMILARITY and a very stark DIFFERENCE. The other "piece" that I borrowed was "Tic-Tac-Toe" mechanic for scoring points. And the rest is all original. I borrowed from ONE GAME and ONE MECHANIC. The rest, I designed myself.

Much like your D Language sample: you borrowed the entire algorithm from the book. I'm not saying that is WRONG or anything. I'm just saying that when DESIGNING you need to put in your OWN "creative effort" and not try to piece together all kinds of games... I'm pretty certain that THAT will NOT WORK!

So if I equate your Programming to your Game Designing is that you are borrowing too many parts from different sources. Sure it may work okay with the D Lang sample you provided ... But you know FROM EXPERIENCE that it has NOT worked with Eldritch Express ... Because that's too fiddly and I would compare it to a 1000 piece Puzzle:

Quote:
Let's say you have pieces to a puzzle. And you start by putting pieces together like the edges... And then you try to combine those edges together while still having plenty of pieces left in the middle. As you continue you realize that there are pieces missing. You CANNOT complete the Puzzle because you need "X" EXACT pieces to fit in the remaining spots...

Maybe you understand... or maybe you don't.

I'm just trying to be CONSTRUCTIVE... And seeing what the issue is... Since you claim to be getting "BLOCKED" by ALL your design efforts and you cannot seem to complete any games.

My ADVICE: BORROW LESS. INVENT MORE. Because inspiring yourself by ONE (1) Game like "Elder Sign" and not RE-CREATING that game (you don't want a copy!), figure out some MECHANICS from OTHER GAMES that could be of use... And put together a LESS "borrowed" components, may end up with a more "flexible" pieces that may work BETTER TOGETHER and then you can see if you can CREATE the remaining pieces given your own impressions of the game YOU WANT TO DESIGN!

Again... I'm not saying it's BAD. I'm just saying it may be INCOMPATIBLE. That's all... I'm also trying to be CONSTRUCTIVE and bring you to see different avenues available to you... I get STUCK writing RULEBOOKS. I have three (3) games with NO RULEBOOKS and they are ALL DONE! I hate sitting there and re-writing rules. Worst thing ever (for me at least)...

Anyhow... Let me know if any of this makes SENSE or not. This is just feedback that I am getting, I may be WRONG with my understanding...

Cheers @larienna.

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Wed, 06/12/2024 - 14:43
#32
larienna
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It's true that I borrow stuff

It's true that I borrow stuff from other games or ideas. Like I said in the past, I take lego blocks that exists and build something out of it. I rarely design new blocks, but it can sometime happens.

So yes, if I don't have all the blocks I need, I cannot progress further. This is the process of "Mechanics searching" which consist in a quest to find new blocks. This was one of the frustrating elements of board game design.

This is why I wanted to move to video game design, because this phenomenon does not seems present. Or in thin proportions.

As for the maze generating code I sent you, yes it came from a book I read about how to generate maze. Still, I managed to create an algo on my own, I did not code it yet. I will also create variations of the algo in the book, to add different flavor.

Making variations of things that already exist seems always easier for me. I think the main reason is that you already have something playable you can work with. THis is why I worked on a lot of variants.

Still, Even when using known blocks, you can create something new anyway. The configuration of blocks can change, the cement between the blocks can be different, you can paint those blocks a different color. So reusing blocks does not necessarily lead to making a game clone. I don't want to make clones, I want each game to be able to hold on it's own. But I need to have a stable platform I can start building on. Else I am just drifting at sea.

Even with the maze generation algo, yes, I coded 2 algo from the book that allowed making perfect maze. But now, there is much more to achieve which is not nearly in the book like :

  • Fixing a pattern before building the maze (ex: rooms)
  • Adding doors, secrets,
  • Making the maze imperfect (more than 1 solution)
  • Combining mazes together
  • Determining locations to put traps and rewards
  • Decorating the maze etc

But once the algo are workings, it's much easier to expand.

I always write rule books, like the one I posted in this thread, because in 6 months from now, I'll have no idea how my game worked. Just notes are often not enough to recreate the game.

It's hard to determine if an idea is borrowed or invented since the mind invent by adding stuff to things it already knows, therefore borrowing. I think all ideas are borrowed by different percentage levels.

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Wed, 06/12/2024 - 18:13
#33
questccg
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I think ...

larienna wrote:
It's true that I borrow stuff from other games or ideas. Like I said in the past, I take lego blocks that exists and build something out of it. I rarely design new blocks, but it can sometime happens.

So yes, if I don't have all the blocks I need, I cannot progress further. This is the process of "Mechanics searching" which consist in a quest to find new blocks. This was one of the frustrating elements of board game design.

Like I said, I have stopped making suggestions, because I don't feel like you are very flexible in designing. Like I said, DESIGN it like "Arkham Horror" but use "Pandemic" style of cards locations/escalation. It you want something SUPER FUN and very climactic ... This would be the way to go. But you never responded to my suggestion, so I did not bring it up.

You also seem very FIXATED and not flexible when it comes to the design.

larienna wrote:
This is why I wanted to move to video game design, because this phenomenon does not seems present. Or in thin proportions.

As for the maze generating code I sent you, yes it came from a book I read about how to generate maze. Still, I managed to create an algo on my own, I did not code it yet. I will also create variations of the algo in the book, to add different flavor.

But know that you are doing the same thing... Except "Coding" is more FLEXIBLE because you can accomplish the SAME goal with different code. So there are a multitude of solutions (like in your Maze book) to solving the same issue.

Why is that important???

Well it is ... Because as being a Software Engineer and working 12+ Years in IT... I know how flexible programming is as compared to Designing Board Games.

In Board or Card Games, there are limited amount of choices and possibilities. So you are left with only a few Puzzle pieces and they DON'T fix your Puzzle. Where as in "programming" you would simply fit another piece in the location and it would miraculously FIT (like polymorphism this is a Nerd Joke! Haha).

larienna wrote:
Making variations of things that already exist seems always easier for me. I think the main reason is that you already have something playable you can work with. This is why I worked on a lot of variants.

Sure that's acceptable. But figure out a STRATEGY and fill in the blanks later. Like my (ARKHAM HORROR + PANDEMIC) example. This version of your game could very well be similar (have three tracks with: Fear, Deception, and Malice) and once all three (3) tracks are DONE (overflow) then the BIG BAD BOSS comes to Town and voila... An Epic Battle... Rather than losing the game.

The strategy is DIFFERENT: you try to extinguish "fires" locally and rid yourself with as many Demons/Undead that come through open gates... Like each location has three (3) Numbers indicating each LEVEL of each "VICE". When a number is reach for that given "VICE" a gate is opened and now players have to contend with the Creature coming through that gate.

larienna wrote:
I don't want to make clones, I want each game to be able to hold on it's own. But I need to have a stable platform I can start building on. Else I am just drifting at sea.

That's why I BORROW very LITTLE and work on "Mechanics" that I have never used before (in my own games, not other games) and see what I can get to work TOGETHER with the few pieces of puzzle that I have.

larienna wrote:
But now, there is much more to achieve which is not nearly in the book...

Yes it might be the issue that you BLOCK on one of the missing aspects of the game and not complete it... Because you cannot marry one aspect with another. So say you can "Generate the Maze" given an algorithm... Does that mean that the Algorithm or the Maze is compatible with Assigning Textures to the Walls???

See what I mean?!

The two (2) might not be compatible and result in a BLOCK because although the Maze was generated... The rendering of Textures is a whole matter onto itself.

larienna wrote:
I always write rule books, like the one I posted in this thread, because in 6 months from now, I'll have no idea how my game worked. Just notes are often not enough to recreate the game.

I write notes and usually I can remember pretty well what I had in mind by reading a few notes here and there. I've got about a Dozen (12+) designs in different phases... Like I said, three (3) need rulebooks but are DONE, FINISHED, PERFECTO, etc.

Remember I'm not saying that BORROWING is "Bad". I'm just saying "Borrow Less" and try to see how you can complement what you have "borrowed" with what you need to make the game EXCITING, THRILLING and TENSION-FILLED.

I can think about NUMEROUS methods for GATES and SUMMONED CREATURES. I gave you one CONCRETE example where this could "satisfy" your NEED for TENSE gameplay. You haven't commented, so my guess is that you are not interested in those ideas so I don't share further.

I'm just trying to see WHAT(?) makes you block... And from what I can see... I'm no shrink... Is that maybe you are borrowing TOO MANY COMPONENTS from TOO MANY GAMES. Anyhow... I like the D Lang example. I was looking to see if I could find a compiler for D Lang... But it seems like you need some kind of underlying LANGUAGE COMPILER and I didn't have time to research further.

I too... Have my own issues and problems to deal with (namely guidebooks and rulesets...)

But my website went LIVE! Yesterday... If you want to have a look, here is the URL/Link:

https://www.k2games.ca

Let me know what you think. All day yesterday, I spent on Mobile tweaks to make the website more readable on Android and iOS platforms. It looks pretty decent... Not 100% ... But this is nature of HTML 5.0, CSS 3.0 and Javascript.

They are NEVER "perfect"...

Best!

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Wed, 06/12/2024 - 21:37
#34
questccg
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No negative feedback...

BTW I wanted to mention, that maybe some of my previous message may sound "harsh" ... And I wanted to re-assure you... I am just speaking "plainly". I'm not finessing like ChatGPT does... It can BS anyone and I didn't want to hold back on what could be some HONEST advice.

So don't be upset if the language seems a bit "coarse". It's just me being "factual" and examining how you design and what your blocks seem to be and how I can offer a hand in helping MOVE you forwards.

I'm not "bashing" or "trolling" you... Not at all. I'm just looking at it from my own perspective which may be radically different than your own.

I will give you an example that my illustrate my point:

The Professor wrote:
He tells me that for "Crystal Heroes" (CH), he would recommend rolling 1D20 and then adding or subtracting a point value and that's how he would handle combat.

I tried that for a couple of games and became BORED. I didn't LIKE the feel of the dice (too light and flimsy) and so I came up with my OWN "NOVEL" suggestion. Now I know the Mechanic behind it is "Card/Dice Pool Management" and I decided to roll 3D10s so from 0 to 27. Furthermore, I made each Dice a different Color and MATCH to STATS of Power, Skill and Magic. Red, Yellow, and Blue respectively. Then I decided to add ANOTHER Mechanic "Card/Dice Pool Locking". This means that the only dice you can RE-ROLL is your CLASS dice (which is either Power, Skill or Magic depending on the unit). So you can use the class die to re-roll based on your CLASS STAT.

See how different the APPROACH was?

Initially the suggestion was 1D20... And I went into a Dice Pooling/Locking mechanics to arrive at what I feel is a NICER feel for the COMBAT.

Now I don't know if there are COMBAT games out-there that use 3D10s or more... I'm sure there are. But I didn't check for that... I playtested the IDEA and saw that it had MERIT. And so I decided to adopt this for CH.

So if your STAT CLASS die is Red (Power) you can re-roll that DICE as indicated by the STAT on that Unit's STAT PATH. And much like @The Professor's suggestion when you roll the dice, you have to score EQUAL or HIGHER than the opponent's DEFENSE STAT. Coming back to something more familiar.

I'm happy with the COMBAT mechanic ... So much so, that I added a FOURTH (4th) D10 (so 4D10s) and the Purple D10 purpose is to MATCH the CLASS Die. Again if I am Power, the Red Die must EQUAL the Purple Die. When it DOES, that player earns a Chaos Crystal which is an alternate Track towards winning the game.

Again just explaining what I have done and how I went about it.

Why D10s and not D8s. I like the "0" on the D10. For me it is ZERO (0) and NOT Ten (10). So it's 0 to 27 Attack Score and not 3 to 30...

Anyways this is how I "DESIGN". I have a STORYARC and I add to it based on what I feel and TEST what works and makes the GAME "Better" IMO.

I just wanted to make sure I didn't seem like I was being overly "Aggressive". I'm really not that kind of person. You've met me. I don't talk a lot. I probably type a lot of what I THINK(!) but that's what I like about this FORUM.

We can ALL express our opinion! Cheers @larienna.

Note #1: I forgot to mention that the Purple (Chaos) Die gets UNLOCKED when one (1) of two (2) conditions occur:

#1> When you randomly collect one (1) Chaos Crystal from a Conquest (Battle).

#2> When you match two (2) sequences on the Tic-Tac-Toe grid (Center is last).

If either of these conditions occur and you earn ONE (1) Chaos Crystal... That unlocks the Conquest Chaos Crystal (Purple Die).

Not that this is very important... I'm just explaining it for mere sake of being completionist. Much like you sending me the ZIP and that D-Lang sample.

Which again ... I found VERY COOL. I didn't look into the Android Project. Not yet. I've still got to write a Guide Book for my "Dual Dice" which I hope to start selling in Summer 2024. Obviously my plans are SHOT a bit... My order of twenty (20) Quest - Reboot game boxes is taking longer than expected. The shipping date keeps getting pushed back and back... Making me believe that the game will arrive in Fall 2024... And not Summer 2024 (even at the very end)!

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Thu, 06/13/2024 - 15:49
#35
larienna
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Quote:You also seem very

Quote:
You also seem very FIXATED and not flexible when it comes to the design

First, I am not a fan of Pandemic. Second, if by pandemic you mean drawing and placing event cards, I am already doing this but using different stacks and rolling dice. Yes, I could put the localization on the card, but the drawback is that that cards always spawn at the same place. In a city scale game, it could make more sense to localize cards since certain facilities are only available in certain portions of the city.

Another idea from Robinson Cruoe, also using event cards but differently. When you get an encounter, something can "remain lurking" by putting the card into the event deck which could spawn later. It's an approach for delayed consequences.

Quote:
I know how flexible programming is as compared to Designing Board Games

Even in board games, a mechanics like Deck Building can have tons of variations making each deck builder unique. I think flexibility is actually worst than video games.

A weird ways to compare board games to video game design could be video game design has very little primitives but can hold a huge quantity of data and can resolve a large quantity of primitives. While board games have a lot of complex primitives with multiple variations, but you can use only a limited amount and little data can be stored.

It's like comparing RISC (Reduced instruction set computer) and CISC (Complex instruction set computer) CPU.

For the design blocking aspect, it's really more related to content creation than rule design. For example, I made a solitaire deck builder for a Vampire survivor (video game) type of game. I wrote the rules, tested blindly using regular cards (and imagining the content), fixed some rules. The flow of the game could be playable, it's not perfect, but it could be playable. But I need cards with unique content to play ... now I am blocked.

The easiest solution would be to use cards from a game that already exists, make some test, then diverge from those cards, but this is not always possible. Either I lack confidence to improvise cards and play the game, either I am perfectionist and I want perfect card design stalling the progress, either at this point I lose motivation for some reason and stop the design, or a mix of all those reasons.

The irony, is that deck builders are probably the easiest to design because you can play the game using only starter cards, then introduce new cards regularly. So I only need to design starter cards to test the game.

Quote:
I was looking to see if I could find a compiler for D Lang... But it seems like you need some kind of underlying LANGUAGE COMPILER and I didn't have time to research further.

WTF! There is only 3 compilers DMD, LDC, or GDC. It should be easy to install. After doing some research, the main critism of D is not the language itself, but rather the limited tools and documentation available. The documentation on dlang website and the forums are very helpful, but if you search on the net, 80% of the info are on those 2 websites.

Quote:
BTW I wanted to mention, that maybe some of my previous message may sound "harsh"

We are game designers, we are "designed" to accept criticism.

I tried to stop board game many years ago, it was easier said than done. I though that maybe it's just board game I have problems with, it will be easier as video games. But did not had time to do much with school. I currently program more for my mental health than for producing anything useful.

Quote:
See how different the APPROACH was?

Of course, you never borrow as is. You can borrow to patch the game and make it playable before you eventually pick the right mechanism. For example, my steampunk game listed above use somewhat and innovative mechanism. You roll 2D8, each dice is compared with 2 character attributes. There is one die for the accomplishment level, and one die for the casualties. You can get partial or full success depending if you roll under one or two attributes. This is a pretty unique mechanism, it took some time to design, and I have not seen this elsewhere. I wanted a complex resolution with a single roll (2 dices).

Quote:
You've met me. I don't talk a lot.

Ha, ha! That was a very long time ago, probably more than 15 years ago, I don't remember much. I even looked at your picture on your web site and did not remember your face.

Anyways, I think the main rule for this steampunk project is: Make it city level scale and make it more personal.

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Thu, 06/13/2024 - 16:58
#36
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larienna wrote:I am a huge

larienna wrote:
I am a huge fan of elder sign.

Cool. I have never heard of it until I stumbled across it the other day. I like to think I know about a lot of games, but this one got by me.

larienna wrote:

I remember many year ago, I was really fascinated about Arkham Horror and wanted to know more about it.

The ludology podcast did episode on Arkham horror. I listened to it many a year ago. So I can't really what year it was.

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Thu, 06/13/2024 - 17:36
#37
questccg
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I understand what you mean...

I'm not suggesting you COPY "Pandemic"... I just wanted you to TRY "Pandemic's" ESCALATION Mechanic (which is basically 3 cards).

So you have a Deck of City Locations. Shuffled that Deck and introduce THREE (3) "ESCALATION" Cards in even positions.

Each time you draw a City Location, discard that card.

BUT when you DRAW the "ESCALATION" Card... Take ALL the Locations in the DISCARD, shuffled them and place them ON TOP of the Location Deck.

Lastly discard the "ESCALATION" Card.

***

Why is this important??? Because basically it will re-introduce the SAME Locations you have visited BEFORE and cause more of what you want for your DOOMSDAY Track. It's like BOOST twelve (12) City Locations and then re-shuffle and re-visit those same twelve (12) City Locations AGAIN making those Locations HEAT-UP even faster (2x).

***

larienna wrote:
Another idea from Robinson Crusoe, also using event cards but differently. When you get an encounter, something can "remain lurking" by putting the card into the event deck which could spawn later. It's an approach for delayed consequences.

That sounds a bit like my "ESCALATION" Cards mechanic. The whole "re-spawning" later...

That's all I got for the moment... Tell me what you THINK(?) about that mechanic since it ONLY introduces three (3) cards and does WONDERS for TENSION... And game difficulty.

Best!

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Thu, 06/13/2024 - 18:31
#38
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Why did you choose to

Why did you choose to re-theme it in the first place?

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Thu, 06/13/2024 - 22:06
#39
questccg
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I think ...

X3M wrote:
Why did you choose to re-theme it in the first place?

It's because he felt the "existing" version of HIS adaptation to be "BORING". This is generally the feel that I got from his OP. I could be wrong but the idea to re-theme was to come up with something more NOVEL and at the same time work on perfecting the game all the while having something DIFFERENT than he had before.

Previously he had a game similar to "Arkham Horror", he wanted to move away from this to something ELSE. But that's why in the other thread, he presented and we discussed different THEMES he could use to re-skin his game, like a Secret Agent theme or something else along those lines.

But generally that was the REASON and GOAL on the other thread. You maybe did not have a chance to read it or contribute to it... But we briefly discussed a couple other themes.

I personally suggest NOT to pursue the "Steampunk" Theme because ART is very specific and hard to come by. It's going to be HARD to find assets that fit the genre very well and I think AI like MidJourney will have a hard time making art in that sort of vein...

I've tried ROBOTs and it was "difficult" even though I managed to get 18 out of 54 cards done. Still not an easy proposition...

Cheers.

Note #1: For @X3M here is the post that talks more about the game experience and he says he got a "Meh!" result:

https://www.bgdf.com/forum/game-creation/design-theory/mechanics-dynamic...

That should explain. We maybe discussed the various themes in PMs too... I looked and could not find that thread. But @ork's thread has some information too...

Sincerely.

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Thu, 06/13/2024 - 22:40
#40
questccg
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Also ...

You may want to consider something like EACH time you DRAW a "Location", an Event occurs at that location. This would make cards LOCATION-Dependent ... But could be pretty specific.

I know you wanted to daisy-chain events... And I don't think you'll be able to get that LEVEL of "bread crumbs" that you want (as you shared the example play with us) because that is solely reserved for RPGs like AD&D and Cthulhu Systems.

But you could have some kind of EXPLORATORY or INVESTIGATIVE action on the Event and then have the "consequence" on the opposite side. I know this kinda sucks for replayability... But it is one avenue.

If you dislike Pandemic, you are going to dislike the "Putting out fires" around the city type of gameplay. Your concept reminds me of Pandemic in that way: like you said "The game plays you... And not you play the game!" And so players are always re-acting to Events instead forging their own path and way.

Like I said, there is no point to ADAPT and RPG System into a Board & Card Game... It just won't happen it's much too complicated. I mean they write like a TON of Books for RPGs. There is AD&D, Pathfinder, Cthulhu, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Vampire, etc. There are probably over a 100 different RPG Systems.

You're going to have to figure out a "DIFFERENT TYPE of GAMEPLAY".

I would start with this. Aside from RPGs, what kind of style of play would be 90% acceptable to what you want to DESIGN. And figure out that BIG QUESTION and then see what can be used as mechanics to solve that design.

Just my 5 cents...

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Thu, 06/13/2024 - 22:52
#41
questccg
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Furthermore...

I think you idea of having a DOOMSDAY CLOCK is good... But I would NOT DESIGN it like "Elder Sign". I would make my own ADAPTATION and design something NOVEL.

Perhaps when you draw "X"-Times the SAME Location, a Gate Opens and therefore, some kind of creature will come through it.

Each time this happens, you move the Doomsday Clock 1-Hour forwards. At Midnight, the game comes to a climatic conclusion in that the Final Boss arrives and you need to Battle Him before he reaches a "specific" goal.

Note #1: This would mean that at MOST you would BATTLE 10 creatures and 1 Boss.

Also each location has it's OWN "X"-Value of visits. And so the "Church" might be a defensive location and have a "3" and therefore you would need to draw "3" times the "Church" Location to open a Gate at that location.

Other locations have 2 or 1 ... You can track this with wooden cubes. A bit like "Pandemic" too (that's why I think that platform is stronger in terms of gameplay than other games...)

Notice each Gate moves the Doomsday Clock one (1) hour forwards...

Simple things like that. I know you said you were borrowing from Elder Sign... Do less BORROWING and more DESIGN and come up with your own rules as I have explained.

This would mean that EACH game has 12 Combat-sequences or you can have a Investigative Item, which prevents the creature from coming through the Gate but at the SAME time the Doomsday Clock advances +1-hour irrespective of how you solve the encounter.

Something like that is SIMPLE and ELEGANT. But of course, it's YOUR design, I'm just offering you AVENUES and EXAMPLES to see what you LIKE and could use.

I honestly don't think that BORROWING a ton of mechanics from any GAME is a valid way of designing games. You'll generally want to adopt ONE (1) type of PLAY STYLE and then a few mechanics and the game is designed.

I think you may also be making the game too predictable and too similar to the other games you are borrowing from too...

Take what I write with a grain of salt. These are just some IDEAS!

Respectfully.

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Thu, 06/13/2024 - 23:15
#42
questccg
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Some additional thoughts

I think this would result in a more CLIMACTIC escalation. At first, the players feel in CONTROL and maybe one (1) Gate opens. And then as players try to resolve that Gate, a second one opens... And then pretty much you'll see that there are a bunch of Gates open and baddies coming through them and sooner rather than later the Big Final Boss will appear after 10 Gates are opened.

I think combined with the "Escalation" Mechanic ... This would all happen very fast... From set-up to conclusion. Players will go from total CONTROL to pure CHAOS in a matter of a few rounds.

Basically what you would WANT and EXPECT from a game like this.

Sorry... I have so many thoughts and ideas concerning the game. But it's YOUR design. I can only offer so much... Especially if the suggestions are not what you want or expect.

Again ... Just some general ideas to move the design in the right direction!

Sorry if I posted a LOT. I just had a lot to say ... Best!

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Fri, 06/14/2024 - 11:58
#43
larienna
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The escalation mechanics make

The escalation mechanics make sense in pandemic, cities popping again in the deck. That is not really the experience I am looking for. Yes, there needs to be an escalation, but not recurrent at the same place.

The Robinson Crusoe mechanism could be used differently. Like if you do not investigate a random event occurring in the city, the card is shuffle in another deck which will trigger worst consequences later. It gives interesting possibilities.

For elder sign, the quickest access to the game is via mobile. The digital game has some very minor differences with the board game, I would say it's 95% like the board game.

The re-theming was essential if I wanted to publish the game commercially since the lovecraftian theme is not 100% public domain, and it becomes hard to determine what is public domain or not. For example, a monster could be PD, but the name of the monster not PD. Else, it must be something inspired on lovecraft like "Darkest Dungeon".

As for the steampunk theme, it was chosen due to the similarity with the Arkham Horror 1920 period, and because it's a theme that is under used which therefore could feel more fresh. I don't care about the artwork, if I do publish this game, I could be using AI, since I am not dropping the idea off the table, but I'll investigate other option first. If I do use AI, it will be clearly specified on the box.

The latest playtest notes that brought this discussion are located here:

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/uploads/Mainsite/GameIdea/GameIdea-Eldrit...

At a city level, maybe having localised cards is more logical. If there is an outbreak in an hospital, it makes sense it's only at the area where the hospital is available. The drawback is replayability but with a campaign mode, new cards could get added and removed changing the replayability. That could patch this problem if there is a campaign mode.

You gave me another idea, what if the bread crumb connections was done differently. What if chains where created not by the player but by the game, similar to synergies in "Star Realms". In that game, you can have a card which does X damage + ability. But many cards have a special synergy ability. If another card in play of matching color is present, that additional ability triggers.

So a similar system could be used, random encounters spawns, but it can connect itself to other encounters on the board making themselves more powerful. So the more encounters that spawn, the more likely it's going to boost other encounters. That could force the players to resolve encounters in chain order to minimise risk, or try to break the chain to sabotage it. Maybe evil succeed by creating chains.

I'll have to take a look again at Lamplighters, the game is pretty long and tough and I don't have much time. Or I should at least take more a loot at the world event/progression system since this is what I am interested in. In this game, there is like 3 doom track, one for each faction. It's like Xcom, accomplishing missions of the matching faction reduce its track. Leaving a faction unattended will trigger dramatic events and eventually, you will lose the game.

The doomsday clock is not exactly like elder sign, it's a fusion of Elder sign and Eldrich horror's clock. The positive of the doom clock with the progress track is that you can clearly see if you are ahead or behind the game progression. The drawback is if not all encounters make the player progress on the track. Elder sign have encounters that gives no elder sign, but gives different rewards. So those non-progressing encounters need to have a serious impact on the game to be worth resolving instead of a progressing encounter.

Don't worry to much about borrowing. Take a look at my game Fallen Kingdoms, is was inspired from Britania which I borrowed many mechanic? In it's final stage, its not even close to its inspiration. Borrowing is good to get started, eventually the design evolves and becomes something different.

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Sun, 06/16/2024 - 22:12
#44
questccg
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I'll never understand this...?!?!

larienna wrote:
Don't worry to much about borrowing... Borrowing is good to get started, eventually the design evolves and becomes something different.

So what do you need HELP with??? If it's perfect as-is and you are not blocked ATM ... What kind of assistance are you looking for?!

If you say you've played the prototype and it is only "Meh!" well then you have to go BACK and re-design with new mechanics and revise all those "borrowed" parts and come up with a new design which is now interesting.

I don't understand... And you are not the first Designer who has posted: "My game sucks and I need help..." And then when other Designers offer their opinion on what to change they are like: "I don't really want to change anything ... Even if the game sucks... I am blocked!"

It's either stubborness or inflexibility to revise the design with new concepts and new mechanics than rather thinking you will take a "Meh!" Design and SOMEHOW(???) miraculously transform it into an amazing "Prototype"...

You'll have to explain this to me... Because like I said, you are NOT the first designer that has done this. Many, many, many designers are enamored with their (pardon the language) cr@ppy games and don't want to make any dramatic changes to improve the game... You'll have to explain it ... Because if the design is mediocre ... Well I don't see how one mechanic or one rule change is going to IMPACT the design significantly to make make it FANTASTIC!

For that kind of result, you'll have to RE-THINK the "core" of the game and how it plays. Not just a mechanic or two. But again, I don't understand it because this is not the first time ... That "Blocking" sounds like stubbornness and/or inflexibility to TRY new ideas and re-work from the "core" to ensure that the game MAYBE becomes GREAT given a RE-THINK.

But like I always say: It's YOUR design ... You're the one in control. I won't make any additional suggestions because you seem FIXATED on what you already have even if it is cr@ppy. Do you understand my point???

Anyhow... I'll let you think about it. And see what YOU want out of your design. So far all I keep seeing is that your are referring everyone to a prototype that is "Meh!" and requires RE-THINKING if it is going to be improved... Not a replacing of one or two mechanics...

Sincerely.

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Sun, 06/16/2024 - 23:39
#45
questccg
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Again...

I'm not trying to be a JERK or anything. I just get confused because it happens rather often and I don't know HOW(?) to respond.

And like I said, you are not the FIRST Designer to do this.

I've got to admit that "Crystal Heroes" (CH) went into a Development cycle and I can fulling iterate that it went through about 20+ SIGNIFICANT changes given the review of my design by @The Professor.

With Joe's help, I revised a LOT of CH and have improved upon the mechanics making the game more FUN. But I was flexible to understand HOW(!) Joe wanted to see changes in the design which also included going from Deterministic Combat to Chance-based Combat (give dice rolls).

I had a LOT of changes to apply and now I am STUCK too!... Because NOW I need to DOCUMENT all those 20+ modification in the rulebook ... And it will take a significant amount of effort to re-work all the rules.

So I too get blocked ... But for reasons of documenting or ruleset writing. That doesn't mean that some of my designs are blocked for other reasons too...

Cheers and again, not being "harsh" ... Just speaking "plainly".

Note #1: I don't want to insult anyone... Sometimes when you type out a message... You re-read it and it seems "harsh". And again, I mean no disrespect to you or others. I'm just stating what is on my mind and what can be done to improve your situation.

So I guess the best response would be to say: "I don't know about this and that and that...?!" These are the things that are NOT working for me... And things that I need help with...

Again not being a JERK... Just stating plain simple facts and speaking the truth and impressions that I get from not only you but other designers too!

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Mon, 06/17/2024 - 07:25
#46
larienna
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I know this thread was

I know this thread was created as a continuity of another thread, and we have been taking in many directions during this thread. Normally, I ask specific questions to avoid getting lost.

I think right now, the most important thing that is blocking the whole design process is to find an investigation mechanism that is interesting and that works.

This investigation system is closely tied to encounters characters can have and random events that occurs in the game.

My theory was that it was impossible to implement without a story script or a game master. I posted another thread on BGG on the subject.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3312572/looking-for-mechanics-to-reprod...

I agree losing a certain amount of consistency to make the game playable.

As for the rest of the game like character stats, action system, combat resolution, assets and upgrades, I can find a way to make it work.

***

We often hear the concept of waiting for the enemy to reveal/play his cards. What if that could actually be taken literally.

In a game like "jack rummy", Players tried to assemble different set of cards based on the suit or number. What if the game tried to assemble those set and the players tries to prevent the game from doing so. For example:

There is 2 villain plans in play which requires:

2 pairs
a flush

Encounters spawn on the board regularly, if the matching set spawns on the board, the villain plan works and is resolved. Now maybe the players are also trying to assemble the same sets or different sets to destroy the villain's plan.

To the set assembly is a way to linking the encounters, with the villain plans without having a game master, script or AI actually making those plans.

If does not have to be complex poker hand, any other combinations of symbols, colors could work. There could be other variations possible.

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Mon, 06/17/2024 - 19:47
#47
questccg
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Adventure Mini-Deck

Well the only advice that I have for you is this:

questccg wrote:
Go with Booster Packs and have like ten (10) Card mysteries which can be solved with different outcomes.

This means each Pack adds to the Adventure and you can control what happens with the STORYARC by like including "X" Amount of Packs into one (1) Adventure Mini-Deck.

Something like that...

Perhaps if there are some RULES to the Booster Packs like:

-Up to "3" Rewards given depending on the level of success.
-"6" cards that control the way that the Investigation is handled.
-"1" Bad-Guy that need to be defeated (in some way).

That's like ONE (1) Ten-Card Pack. That's all I got. I cannot help you any further because I don't have any more relevant advice.

Variations of the RULES can be:

-No "Bad-Guy"
-More or less Rewards
-More of less Investigative Breadcrumbs.

Something like that.

***

I have a game called: "Quest Adventure Cards(tm)" (Quest_AC) the Reboot... Because I am re-launching the game with new mechanics and well, I am using a pre-defined FORMAT and seven (7) Quest Packs. It's NOT anything close to STORIES or BREADCRUMBS ... But it does follow a structure. As I proposed above.

But realize that it only contributes to SET COLLECTION and not investigative in nature "Quests" or "Adventures". There are two (2) distinctive mechanics:

#1> "Quests" which are all the SAME COLOR of cards and score Victory Points.

#2> "Collections" which are are fragment with the SAME SYMBOL and score no VPs.

Players at the end of their turn must have five (5) cards in-hand. If they have LESS, they draw a card from the COMMON Deck. If they have more, they discard "X" cards until they have only five (5) cards.

So this "discard" mechanism encourages players to put-down collections even if they score no points because those cards can be re-used at a later time.

***

So in my game (Reboot), yes there are symbols you can combine and Quests you can create (SAME COLOR)... But it is NOT like your breadcrumb idea.

And that's what I wanted to ADD: Symbols and such will not lead to investigative game. Like I said Quest_AC already uses symbols and believe me they do NOT amount to breadcrumbs and stories. It's PURE "SET COLLECTION". And not something that would interest you.

***

I don't have much more ideas except for the Booster Packs and make RULES within each "Pack" as to what cards are present and how many of each, etc.

This could allow for expandability as you release more Booster Packs with NEWER adventures perhaps.

Sincerely.

Note #1: If you want further explanation or insight into HOW(?) Quest_AC works, you can help me by BUYING a copy here:

https://www.thegamecrafter.com/games/quest-ac-v1.5-reboot

The game is fully BILINGUAL and there are digital rules you can download after you purchase the game. In the event you want to see in action what I have described in words. Anyhow... No worries. In my game, I use the SYMBOLS for "SET COLLECTION" and not "breadcrumbs" even though each Quest has its OWN "cohesion" (so-to-speak)!

Note #2: I don't think that the Quest_AC mechanics will help you... Because in my case it is mostly a structure which defines what can and cannot be part of a Quest. And each "Quest" is comprised of ten (10) cards:

+ Five (5x) Quest "Fragments"
+ Five (5x) Quest "Events"

Events are Take-That cards players can use to steal, exchange, discard, pay, etc. from their "Quests" and Hands. Fragments are mostly pieces to each Quest that can be assembled during a match.

If you get the game (Buy a copy), you can STUDY the nature of the Quests in more detail and you'll see a PATTERN as defined by me to add variability and the outcome of the Quests.

I'm not sure it would help... Since my "Fragments" don't need to be in-sequence... They can be in ANY ORDER you like provided that you obey the rules for "SET COLLECTION"... As defined in the rulebook of this compact game...

Note #3: The SET COLLECTION mechanics are rather "clever" in the Reboot of the game. Previously I had "Quest Cards" which defined the nature of EACH "Quest". I wanted to RID myself of that and come up with something more "flexible". As such I used SYMBOLS to make that happen.

The game is NOT "rocket science" but it's FUN to play. And was designed so that kids and Families can play too!

Note #4: At $29.95 USD for Quest_AC, you get the best value for the game. All you need to do is search for "quest" and you'll see that MY game is one of the whole games which is LEAST expensive. It is one-off production so the cost is higher... But you're getting Quality Art and the game is FUN too! Just wanted to point that out... Since many games are sold on TGC's sales platform... My game compares with most COMPLETE games even though the composition of the game is SEVEN (7) Quests!

Note #5: If you visit my website... You can DOWNLOAD the "Quest_AC" Rulebook which is BILINGUAL. Go to http://www.k2games.ca

And it will give you an IDEA of how the game works. The best bet is to actually analyze the Quest Fragments to understand how they work... But again you can gain some insight by reading the rulebook (if you want to do that...)!

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Tue, 06/18/2024 - 01:36
#48
larienna
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I am not going to go

I am not going to go collectible, but your idea of booster could be similar to adding cards at the game's end in campaign mode according to the resolution of the game or if you succeeded or not.

Again, same concept as "Legacy of yu". In that game, resolving certain cards will add and remove cards to your deck for the next game. There will be a small story paragraph associated to it. At the game's end, if you win or lose the game, you will draw a card that will modify the next game to make it harder or easier.

By itself, set collection seem pretty dull, I would need to make an exploration test with regular card to see if I can make it work. One of the criteria is to have a reason to go somewhere. If there is the encounter card you need to match your set, there is a reason to go there to get the card, or sabotage the villain requirements.

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Tue, 06/18/2024 - 12:57
#49
questccg
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No I was not thinking about Collectible either...

larienna wrote:
I am not going to go collectible, but your idea of booster could be similar to adding cards at the game's end in campaign mode according to the resolution of the game or if you succeeded or not.

No I was merely thinking in terms of REPLAYABILITY. That's the thing: if there is a scenario you follow, the 2nd time you play ... You already know some (if not all) of what is to happen. Booster Packs with NEW "Adventures" may prove to be better in terms of players wanting to play again.

larienna wrote:
By itself, set collection seem pretty dull, I would need to make an exploration test with regular card to see if I can make it work. One of the criteria is to have a reason to go somewhere. If there is the encounter card you need to match your set, there is a reason to go there to get the card, or sabotage the villain requirements.

Yeah... I don't know about your "breadcrumbs". All I am saying is that "Quest_AC" was very challenging to re-design and it took me some time to figure out HOW(?) to get the Quests working without any "Quest Reference Cards". And I wanted something more flexible than say:

Hero + Monster + Lair + Treasure.

While this may be ONE (1) TYPE of "Quest", they all vary in terms of what is the composition. Could be:

Hero + Monster + Equipment + Item.

And the engine is sufficiently "flexible" to accommodate a bunch of different types of Quests. I've explained two (2) different ones above, there are plenty more variations possible.

Bottom line: since order is unimportant, the Quests are comprised of Fragments as they are collected in-hand.

Equipment + Lair + Treasure + Monster

Could be another variation... (No Hero and not in-order either).

That's kinda why I said, you would need to BUY a copy of the game to better understand the underlying "Quest" Mechanic (when doing Set Collection). I was not being a JERK telling you to BUY my game ... It's just I cannot explain unless you are looking at the cards themselves (easy if you sort them IN-ORDER) and then you'll see the pattern emerge.

Otherwise it's kinda hard to explain in words...

Again no worries, you can download the rulebook from the K2 Game, Inc. Website (http://www.k2games.ca).

Cheers @larienna.

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Tue, 06/18/2024 - 16:47
#50
questccg
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Variability...

Let's say that instead of 10 Cards per Pack, you had 12 Cards. Why? Because let me explain further. So while each "Scenario" (Booster Pack) has it's own MYSTERY the extra cards can be "breadcrumbs" for another Mystery.

Like say if you are playing "Missing Orphanage Children" and "Stolen Ankh at the Museum" and perhaps this 1st Mystery is connected to the 2nd one... You could have 2 cards in-relation to the Robbery.

Some kind of CONNECTION when you play those two (2) Investigations.

These are some pretty ABSTRACT ideas... Just sharing what I see as extra opportunity to add some VARIABILITY and REPLAYABILITY too!

IDK... Just thinking about the extra packs and what they could be useful for...

Best!

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Tue, 06/18/2024 - 17:02
#51
questccg
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How to go about things...

Maybe your Investigative "Card Backs" are COLOR-COORDINATED. Like you have six (6) colors plus one (1) symbol and that can make for a TON of VARIABILITY. The extra connections I'm talking about could be for the same symbol. Meaning if Mystery #1 and Mystery #10 both have a Museum Painting, they are related to the SAME category of Mysteries and can have more "compatible" breadcrumbs...

It might be easier to write those kinds of STORIES/MYSTERIES than rather just try to write them to be all undistinguishable ... Do you see my point??? Yes COLOR could have a SIMPLE RULE: Maximum ONE (1) of the SAME COLOR. Meaning that a game could be composed of SIX (6) Mysteries to solve.

The SYMBOLS are used for similarities and CONNECTIVITY... etc.

Something like that! Like I said, this is NEW "unchartered" territory for me. I've never designed something with connecting stories or mysteries. So these may be old ideas you might have already explored and not used.

Sincerely.

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Tue, 06/18/2024 - 17:10
#52
questccg
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How about "SET COLLECTION"...

Let's say that to COLLECT a "Breadcrumb" you need to visit the LOCATION on the "Backside" of the card. Let's make the SYMBOL a LOCATION instead. Each breadcrumb comes with "X" cards that must be collected. When you collect all "X" cards, you can try to solve the Mystery!

But before this point, you're just going around collecting PIECES to the PUZZLE.

Again more ideas... Let me know if you think any of these IDEAS are of use!

Cheers!

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Tue, 06/18/2024 - 22:56
#53
larienna
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I made 2 quick exploration

I made 2 quick exploration test today using regular cards and Arkham Noir's cards, and I think I might have found something when using Arkham Noir's cards. I'll try to explain only the core rules to keep the explanations simple. I currently do not consider the number of players in the game, think of it as a solo game so far. The main difference with Arkham Noir is that my game will have a geography of the city with more details resource management and combat resolution. So it's less abstract.

Starter event cards: These cards are spawned when the clock advance. They are thematically the news that triggers new investigation lines. The player can go to the location to investigate and start a line by picking up the card. The card contain various conditions to accomplish, most importantly, the number of clues necessary to complete the "investigation". There is also a reward/outcome system when the case is resolved and by how much you progress on the doom track once completed. Finally, the right part of the card has an investigation lead, like in Arkham Noir victim cards. Those cards can be either face up on the board, in their deck, for face up in front of the player (for the trail).

Clue/Encounter cards: These cards are spawned face down on the map. Players who visit the area can spend actions to collect those cards. Additional cards could be acquired as a reward. Those cards contains an encounter with resolution instruction and lead icons on the left and the right to match the investigation trails. Cards also have a location on the board. Those cards can either be in their deck, face down on the board, in the player's hand, or face up in front of the players for the trail.

Players can play a clue card from their hand, that matches their investigation trail's lead by moving at the corresponding location and playing that clue. The encounter on the card is resolved, various consequences and level of success can occur, but the investigation itself cannot fail. So the card will be added to the trail whatever the consequences. If the right number of cards is present in the trail, the case is solved and there is progress on the doom track.

This is the core mechanism. Now there are other possible variations like:

  • Accomplishing encounters also removes threat from a location. Giving each clue 2 purpose: Solve case and remove threat.
  • Having some restrictions on the starter cards like preventing some clue type/color, having a special effect while the case is open, etc.
  • Having a closing cards in the trail, that adds some sort of monster or an extra encounter to close the case. Creating a kind of climax.
  • Failing an encounter might accelerate enemy plans or prevent you from getting certain rewards, etc.
  • Each location could have it's own deck of cards like "A touch of evil" preventing the need to spawn cards on the board, and force players to move for collecting cards.

Now if I compare this system with my requirements

  • There is strategy, you know what you are getting into, there are additional effects besides growing the trail. Multiple clue cards could make the same trail progress. So there are some choices
  • There is a reason to go somewhere, either to collect cards or solve clues.
  • It is not scripted and cards could be substituted in campaign mode.
  • There is a climax only if trail closing cards are used.

Tell me what you think?

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Wed, 06/19/2024 - 16:40
#54
questccg
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Tell me what you think?

Well for starters, this is nothing like your "breadcrumbs" example where players go wherever they want and the investigation still occurs in some way or fashion.

In this scenario, players are also being led around the board given that there are clues to collect or enemies to combat. Although players have choices about where they go... There is no reason to go to the "Hardware Store" if there are no cards on that location (for example).

I'm not quite sure I understood everything. Namely how do cards connect and the trail moves forwards when matching symbols for a trail. Also does each Player have his/her own investigation trail or is there only one for the group/party?!

I don't see how the CLIMAX would occur since players collect clues and know in advance what will happen in the end. Sorry but just because you play that card LAST doesn't mean that the players have read it long BEFORE the end.

Also the "Each location could have it's own deck of cards" is a bit ambiguous. IF you have thirteen (13) locations you can visit are you telling me there can be up to 13 Decks (one per location)?! This doesn't make much sense to me either.

Anyhow... I'm not getting HOW(?) these "newer ideas" make for a more exciting game. I guess that's because I have another VISION for the game and how it could work (But I explained that before...)

Sincerely.

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Wed, 06/19/2024 - 23:19
#55
questccg
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Now if you had an APP...

That would be different! You could keep the endings confidential such that the players only get to see the "breadcrumbs" in correct order letting the APP take care of managing what "breadcrumb" to display NEXT.

In this case, the ending is a SURPRISE and could make for the climax of one of the many Mysteries available in the game.

Now that sounds to me like something INTERESTING...

This would ensure that players get the CORRECT "breadcrumbs" in-sequence and that the end-game could never be pre-determined UNLESS you've investigated that Mystery BEFORE (in an earlier game play).

But since you don't need to PRINT anything PHYSICAL, it's just bits & bytes ... You could have more MYSTERIES. If you planned to have 10 PHYSICAL ones, you could easily DOUBLE the amount and make MORE for added replayability...

That to me sounds much more appealing and of VALUE.

You could also have the capabilities to PURCHASE and DOWNLOAD an update which gives you FRESH content too... Which can also add tremendous value in the end product. Without the APP, sorry... I just don't see it working.

But you're a programmer with Android experience... While I might know a bit about software, I'm not trained in Mobile Development. I would LOVE to learn, but right now it's not in the cards (so-to-speak).

I've got a lot of things to take care of... And I'm planning a KS in August (maybe!) So that's a work-in-progress and will require a lot of planning and attention to detail. Plus I've got Quest_AC which will be delivered WHENEVER ... Seems like the date of shipping is slipping further into August and probably September. So I may have a "Back-To-School" event rather than a "Summer 2024" event as I had planned.

But anyhow... I'm trying to be CONSTRUCTIVE in my comments (What works and what I feel doesn't, etc.) I'm not bashing on your idea... Just does seem like it's PHYSICALLY possible. With an APP ... Yes!

Cheers @larienna.

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Thu, 06/20/2024 - 10:48
#56
larienna
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There is a breadcrumb system,

There is a breadcrumb system, but there is more than a single clue/encounter card that can fill in the trail. In Arkham Noir, there a 4 types of lead, plus an "any" type of lead which is a wildcard.

I understand, that I cannot take the initiative of going where I want when following the trail. If I make each area have it's own stack of cards, I could incite players to have a feeling of "if they want X, they need to go to the location Y". This is used in arkham horror by having icons telling that this location mostly have those 2 things. Else, the location need to have a special ability player can use when going there. Else, in campaign mode, players could remember that a certain location have certain cards, but I am not sure I want to take this route.

There will be either 6 or 8 locations. Nothing more. The only benefit of location deck is that I can make each location have a feeling of what cards you can get, but it's hard to make a solid strategic decision based on that. Also the card themselves have location to go to, I guess cards in the deck of location A will go to other locations than A. Else having a common deck and spawning cards on the board is another solution. But the advantage of having a deck for each location, is that there is always cards available to pickup everywhere unless a deck becomes depleted. If the number of cards is limited, that could be a situation where an area runs out of clues. Not sure if I want this.

For the multiplayer thing, I am not sure yet if I will be using shared trails, or per player trails. My main issue is for the balance of the pacing of the game. With the current system, to accommodate different number of players, I think I would need shared trails, since more players equals less actions per players. Unless each player will individually accomplish more or less trails. I would need playtesting for this one. Else, I fix the game to 2 characters, allowing playing 2 players or solo. The length of the trail, and the amount of turns required to resolve is also important.

The trail system is like in Arkham Noir. You just make a line of cards where at least 1 symbols on the edge of the cards matches. The case would be solved when X cards are in the trail. In Arkham noir, it's more complicated, you need 5 different type of clues in the trail plus possibly a puzzle piece with a key to unlock it. I don't want to push to far since I am adding geography and resource management to the game already.

For the climax, I am not really sure. The only idea so far, is that when you complete a trail, a random trail ending card is placed. It must be resolved to close the case. Maybe that trail end card is put face down with the location where to go, then flipped up when encountered to have a surprise effect.

So far, the main benefits of this system is:

  • Simulate a form of bread crumbing.
  • Prevents quarter backing, but not a priority if played solo.
  • Know what you are getting into since the encounter is open.
  • You partially chose where to go, what to do, or in what order to play clues. (Try to solve case immediately, or try to find a better clue ).

I understand that the breadcrumbs themselves are less surprising, unless I keep some info on the card hidden. For example, the clue state that you will face a robot monster, but you need to draw one from a deck. Still, displaying the content of the breadcrumb is what adds strategy to the game. This is one of the element that could make the design difficult is having strategy in an investigation game. I don't want players just to read a story, I want them to make important decisions.

Yes an app can allow more possibilities, but many players hate games that requires an app to play, unless it's something optional.

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Sun, 06/23/2024 - 19:33
#57
questccg
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Some early thoughts...

How about six (6) locations out of a possibility of ten (10). This will allow for more "flexibility" and value when it comes to replayability.

I still don't know about YOUR "breadcrumbs"?!

Maybe the Backside of the Card can have a "Color + Symbol" representing the "breadcrumb". This way you can have ONE (1) Deck of "Breadcrumbs" and deal out to each location one (1) card...

This goes in vein with your idea about choosing where to go based on the card or where the trail leads you to. So the "Backside" can feature some kind of information (partial) and when you go to that location you do as the card says and how it affects the COMMON "Investigation Trail". Something like that.

My ONLY issue is the "Climactic Ending" which could be from a SPECIAL or "separate" Deck and wait until all the "Breadcrumbs" are claimed... The ending could be variable and player's would not KNOW what the heck is happening until that card is drawn. I don't have another solution for you on that front...

Honestly, I think what would be COOL is if the "STARTING" Breadcrumb and the "CONCLUDING" Breadcrumb could be identical (like connected)... That would be real neat, but I don't know how to achieve this (in practical terms)!

But yeah maybe something like this could be possible with some other ideas or contribs from other members. Different person, different perspective and someone may have a way to achieve this "duality" of START & STOP investigation clues...

This is what I have ATM. I will think some more and see where that leads.

Sincerely.

Note #1: What I THINK is each of the six (6) Locations should have TWO (2) Investigative Clues. Maybe four (4) out of the locations need to be visited to form a 4-Breadcrumb scenario with a Fifth (5th) card which is the resolution to the Mystery.

So this means twelve (12) Investigative Clues (to your Mystery) and ONE (1) resolution which could be some kind of Encounter or alternate ending to the mystery...

This would give MAXIMUM flexibility to the "Breadcrumbs" (I mean 12 is a LOT of possibilities) and therefore there could be a good MIX of Clues to follow in the various locations around the game.

The Investigative Clues can be drawn from one COMMON DECK and then players can choose where they want to GO and what clue they want to collect. For example, travelling to one location means that PERHAPS two (2) Clues may be explored. It depends on the nature of the cards (Cardback Symbols and Colors) and that could definitely work to make the game more FLEXIBLE.

PLUS it could make some location more of INTEREST because you can pickup TWO (2) CLUES rather than just one to help move the mystery along...

Maybe something to that effect. I've been thinking about it and that's what came to mind: two (2) Clues per Location and that means 12 Cards on the board.

I think twelve (12) is a good number because it matches the Doomsday Clock which also has 12-Hours ... This kind of number symmetry is thematically interesting so-to-speak.

I will continue to ponder more about these topics and see what else comes to mind...

Note #2: Remember the START & STOP Investigation clues... Well you could have 3 Decks:

#1> The Breadcrumb deck = which describes various details to the mystery.

#2> The Resolution deck = which describes how the mystery ends.

#3> The Encounter deck = which includes all kinds of creatures to battle.

From #2 you would choose the SAME SYMBOL as the 1st Breadcrumb and therefore search through the Resolution deck for two (2) END Breadcrumbs and the party chooses one of them to resolve the Investigation/Mystery. What I mean by this is that at the end you search for TWO (2) END cards with the SAME Symbol as the 1st Breadcrumb and the Party chooses one of those two (2) cards (Facedown / Backside) and produces the conclusion of the Investigation.

From #3 is whenever the mystery ends in some kind of creature that comes through a gate or appears (somehow?) and requires taking care of (Combat).

From #1 is like your Arkham Noir and help move the Investigation along as you have already determined. There could be four (4) plus the 5 and 6 Resolution cards and MAYBE one (1) Encounter card depending on the how the Investigation concludes...

Something like that could be possible and you could maintain some kind of cohesiveness with the START & STOP Breadcrumbs being RELATED (or SIMILAR)!

Note #3: One TYPE of "Investigation" Breadcrumb could be an ITEM (like a Shovel or Shotgun) and you "The Party" can KEEP that item for future use in solving another Mystery... The Shovel can be using for like digging a Grave or search for Remains, etc. And a Shotgun can be used as a Weapon Bonus when combating a creature (again for example).

That would be also neat so that players can acquire STUFF to use in the game too...

You might have already thought of this... I'm just explaining for completeness and trying to ensure you minimize the amount of DECKS and CARDS required by the game...

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Mon, 06/24/2024 - 00:38
#58
questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Types of Breadcrumbs

#1> Question Mark (Blue) = Involves a decision (This or That)

#2> Skull (Red) = Some kind of Lesser Encounter

#3> Speech Bubble (Purple) = Involves a conversation

#4> Hand Gun (Green) = An item is awarded to the party

#5> Key (Yellow) = If you meet some condition, you earn a reward

#6> Dagger (Orange) = If some condition is NOT met, you get a penalty

Each "breadcrumb" has a number in the Top-Left-Hand corner of the card which is a value that indicates how many "breadcrumbs" need to be uncovered before an "Outcome" (Resolution) card is drawn corresponding to the 1st "breadcrumb".

(Well actually two are drawn... But only one is chosen by the party).

Resolution cards are Gray.

Is this SORT of what you were thinking about Arkham Noir??? I didn't bother googling that game, I just thought about how I WOULD implement the "breadcrumbs" for the game.

Feel free to suggest your own or build upon these examples. IDK if there could be better categories... TBD.

That's it from me for now... Until I hear back from you... I know sometimes I add a lot of content which is irrelevant and not useful and this may be the case again ... Or maybe it just helps you BRAINSTORM a bit more!

Cheers @larienna.

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Mon, 06/24/2024 - 02:32
#59
larienna
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Joined: 07/28/2008
Your idea of making the first

Your idea of making the first and the last card in the trail is interesting. I thought about it but I was not so sure. Linking both could be easy. Either the back side is used, or you use card numbers to link. Still, after some play, people would know the outcome of the investigation, so no surprises. Unless there is 2 possible outcomes (2 sided card for the last clue) The side selected could be determined according to the cards played in the trail. The only thing at stake here is: Are surprises necessary?

In real life, when you go in a area of the town, you know something that incite you to go there. If I want to go downtown, it's because I know some of the stores, or I have a friend who lives there, etc. This is a bit hard to capture in a board game, but not impossible. Else, it ends up as player memorizing the content of each deck at each location. I am not sure I want that to be the strategy of the game, but it could be a way of simulating that memory and knowledge of an area. It could work better in solo, but at some points, when the players know the game, it will be easier to solve. Still the drawing is random, unless I do a draw 3 choose 1 to simulate opportunities and have a bit of strategy (less random). It would make it easier to get the card you want (When you know it's there).

Having locations that gives 2 cards instead of 1 is another possibility. Mark some location has hot spot making investigation easier. Else right now, only locations that has been marked can draw clues.

Arkham noir is slightly more complicated. To solve a case 5 different type of clues out of 6 must be present in the trail to close the case. But, in order to progress in the game, you need to solve puzzle pieces by putting them in the trail. But most of the time, they are locked by a key, so you need to have a clue with a key on it to play the puzzle piece cards. If the trail becomes too long, you start losing sanity. Remember that Arkham Noir is a card only game, so everything need to be abstracted by cards even sanity.

I am sure there is a video tutorial somewhere.

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Mon, 06/24/2024 - 10:44
#60
larienna
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Joined: 07/28/2008
Maybe those first and last

Maybe those first and last cards or a trail could be tied to the villain/demon, giving each of them a unique flavor.

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