I'm always trying to look for game mechanics that are not exactly unique, but are not exactly popular either.
One of these mechanics is the traditional roll-and-move. Recently I was thinking of how I could revive the roll-and-move mechanic and I've come up with some interesting results.
But we're not talking about that right now :)
We're talking about Fudge Dice.
The fudge dice mechanism was created in 1992 (the year I graduate high school!) and runs traditionally as 4 6-sided dice with two plus symbols. 2 minus symbols, and 2 blank sides on each die.
The reason why I mention this is that it presents a different way of rolling for a result. We've known methods like:
To-Hit: A success will always happen on specific numbers. If the numbers are, say, 5 and 6, there's a straight 33% chance of success. Think Warhammer or some Cthulhu-themed games.
Dice-off or modifier: The standard "two players roll, higher roll wins" Usually associated with games like Risk and D&D. Many times modifiers are added to boost the dice result, ending up in somewhat controlled method of attaining a result.
Dice-and-table: A table is consulted when a die is rolled. The table has the results. This isn't really used much, save for older war games. This gives a somewhat random result with specialized results instead of win/lose.
Fudge dice are kind of a unique beast. Technically it falls under the dice-off, but has a hint of a table. The mechanics of fudge/fate are such that there is a small list of traits which are:
+8 Legendary
+7 Epic
+6 Fantastic
+5 Superb
+4 Great
+3 Good
+2 Fair
+1 Average
+0 Mediocre
-1 Poor
-2 Terrible
A player will have a certain number connected to an aspect and rolls according to their challenge. Say for example, you have an aspect "Expert Marksman" trying to assassinate a NPC. According to the GM, your aspect is rated as a 6 (Fantastic), but you challenge is rated a 7 (Epic). You would then roll your 4 dice (4DF) and you'd find your result based on whether your roll brings up or down your aspect number. A matching or higher number is considered a success while a number far over (say +3 over the target) can result in a critical.
Of course there's so much more in fudge (which has evolved into FATE) than this such as FATE points, aspects, and such, but I'm focusing on the dice aspect.
So how can we use this in a game?
I'm currently working on a co-op card game. Every character has a particular number assigned to a specific gun type. For an example, we will say character A has a 5 trait (Superb) for handguns. He can use any handgun and it makes thematic sense because if you can shoot 1 handgun, you (theoretically) should be able to handle ALL handguns. Of course we can go into specific of how handguns are different, but that's another argument.
FATE dice, when rolled only give results ranging from -4 to +4. Pluses will cancel out minuses and it's very easy to read. What makes this great is the percentage at which the FATE dice give results. With 4 dice, the odds of rolling a 0 is 23%. With 3DF, the odds of hitting 0 jump to over 25% and of course 1DF the odds are 33%
Just to compare, the odds to roll a 7 on a standard 2d6 (regular dice) is 16%...and that's the most common result. With a 2d6, there's a total of 10 results (2-12) while FATE dice has a total of 9 (-4 to +4). In addition, a 2d6 isn't as easy to read as, say, calculating plusses and minuses.
So not only is a 0 result (resulting in an "at proficiency" roll) more common and higher than 50%, but it gives the player a sense of rolling a decent amount of dice (for dice chuckers), it's easy to read, AND it's simple.
Relatively...
Comments
How does the table work?
@Jay: When I look-up Fudge Dice, for 4d6 I get the following table:
(-4, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, +4)
Can you explain how you get your table as opposed to this one? I have never seen this mechanic before - and I must admit that it seems interesting.
Your example seems to have 11 entries which suggest that you are using 5d6 as opposed to 4d6. Is this correct?
(+8 Legendary, +7 Epic, +6 Fantastic, +5 Superb, +4 Great, +3 Good, +2 Fair, +1 Average, +0 Mediocre, -1 Poor, -2 Terrible)
This also skews the result of the dice roll... since it will be -5 to +5?!
Or are you saying you have ONE (1) Stat value which is either +1, 0 or -1? So it's 4d6 + Stats (but it still works out to -5 to +5...)
Then your table should look like:
(+4 Superb, +3 Great, +2 Good, +1 Fair, 0 Average, -1 Mediocre, -2 Poor, -3 Awful, -4 Terrible) with 4d6...
And add +5 Fantastic and -5 Disastrous...
With Stats like GUNS = +1, KNIVES = 0, FISTS = -1.
So GUNS could be +5 to -3.
Whereas FISTS could be +3 to -5.
And KNIVES would be +4 to -4...
Is this sort of what you meant by your lookup table? I'm not 100% certain I have fully understood but something like this might be realizable, no?!
Cheers (and thanks for bringing this mechanic to our attention - it is definitely worth discussing further)!
I guess if you augment the Stat
So if stats can vary between +2 and -2, we could revisit the results.
"1 Handed" = +2, "2 Handed" = +1 and FISTS = 0.
So "1 Handed" could be +6 to -2.
Whereas "2 Handed" could be +5 to -3.
And FISTS would be +4 to -4...
Perhaps this how you got your table???
I'm very interested - because FISTS could be like "Standard Attack", "use no additional cards". And "1 or 2 Handed" would imply some sort of weapon you can use for let's say a "Fighter/Warrior" class hero.
And the other example could be "Rogue/Ranger" class hero:
Ranged = +1, Knives = 0, FISTS = -1.
And for the "Cleric/Priest" class hero:
Blunt = +2, Staff = 0, FISTS = -2.
Lastly for the "Mage/Wizard" class hero:
Staff = 0, Knives = -1, FISTS = -2
FATE Ladder
@Jay: Can you explain HOW "FATE" get's its -2 to +8 ladder?
I downloaded the "Core" System and am reading... But I wish somebody someplace could explain how a +4 to -4 dice system gets converted to a +8 to -2 ladder...
Thank you.
Update: I think it's got to do with RELATIVE rolls. Like if you need a +3 Good result to use whatever skill against an NPC and you roll a -4, the result is -1 Poor... And you FAIL with some kind of "penalty".
Am I correct in the understanding???
It's a mystery to me...
I downloaded the "Core" System and am reading... But I wish somebody someplace could explain for a +4 to -4 dice system gets converted to a +8 to -2 ladder...
Thank you.
The 8 to -2 "ladder" is something that was started in fudge, but expanded in FATE as far as I know. It's separate from the actual dice roll of -4 to +4; the roll only determines how far up or down your proficiency goes. Instead of a achieving a target number in D&D (say, you have to hit a 5 when you have a 1d8 and a modifier of +2 for whatever bonus), your "skill" already gives you a base number and the dice roll determines an incremental up or down to achieve the target number.
To be honest, I don't know where the actual numbers came from.
Simply put, I used this to add to the idea of "aiming", which feels more thematic. My proficiency may be a "7", but the target needs an "8" (which is slightly beyond my skill, but achievable) and the dice may or may not give me that bonus. If it gives me a result under the target number, it "feels" like a slight miss instead of "i just didn't roll a target number". In my game, if the result with the die is 1 under the target number, then it takes 1 away from the damage (instead of a 2, it would be hit for 1). This also adds to the theme...that even though I missed, I still hit, but not at full strength.
I hope that explains it a little more.
Clarity on Fudge Dice
There are a handful of game systems out there that refer to the table cited, but without the plus sign in front of the numbers.
Typically, the number is one's level of skill in some sort of task, and it's adjusted by rolling the Fudge Dice:
-- a + is increasing by 1,
-- a - is reducing by 1,
-- a blank die face doesn't change the number
The result needs to meet or exceed the target number in order to count as a success.
Some systems can be rather punishing and/or dramatic, allowing for catastrophic failures and critical successes in tasks. Some require just the Fudge Dice to do things, requiring a number of + or a lack of - in the 4dF roll. It all depends on what you want to do with those tools, of course. There are a lot of ways to use them, but it's generally more useful or convenient than rolling huge handfuls of dice to determine results (unless of course you want Warhammer fistfuls of dice).
Personally, I prefer the
Personally, I prefer the Fudge/Fate dice system over a d6 or d20 system.
I think it gives the player more control over outcomes while still having a sense of luck and unknown.
A while back, I was working on a tactical war game that used this system. It was similar to Neuroshima Hex with a player controlling multiple units and placing them out on the board. The Fudge system was used to determine both battle outcomes and effectiveness of special abilities.
Found something while looking into this
I found a link to someone who explains how to compute DAMAGE using Fate dice:
Each line on a face = +1. So a '+' has 2 lines = +2. A "blank" = +0.
So if you roll 4d6 = +,+,+,+ = 8 damage.
And you vary the number of dice (d6s) used for damage. So a Knife or Dagger (1d6) and maybe even a Staff might do (1d6 + 1) damage. Whereas a Magical Battle Axe could do (4d6 + 4) damage.
This is an interesting variant. First you see IF you HIT (using the ladder and stat bonuses) and then you figure out how much damage you deal (+bonuses from the ladder roll)...
Unnecessarily complicated variant?
What was the context for that variant?
I use the FATE system regularly, and have for years; I highly suggest it. That's why this whole thread has me a bit befuddled. What is the actual question about this dice system?
It's not exactly very different from most other dice systems, is it? The biggest difference being the dice produce a nice probability bell-curve of results around zero, rather than a linear probability away from 0. GURPS hinted at this, but instead of setting the base at 0, set it at 10.5 since you roll 3d6 and 10.5 is the 'average.'
When it comes to combat, damage is simply calculated as the degree to which you won the contest. If your skill+roll is 7, but mine is 9, I win by 2 and therefore do 2 stress damage to you. This blends well with the way FATE runs stress (damage), which I suggest reading up on rather than me reexplaining it here.
This leaves open a lot of ways for custom systems to take advantage of weapons and armour, a few of which are discussed in the Core book.
Was hinting this was more like a d6 system for damage
For me the "stress damage" is much too simple. This would imply every Monster has "2 HP" (so to speak).
I'm more in favor of something closer to a d6 system and the variant I proposed allows you to do between 0 and 8 HP of damage using 1d6 to 4d6 Fate dice.
Gabe was also hinting that he was in favor of a d6 or d20 system build upon the Fate dice system...
That simple variant is exactly that: a d6 system using Fate dice.
My impression of Physical Stress was that it was something like "Constitution" or the ability to have sufficient PHYSICAL ENERGY to combat in the first place. Otherwise your character would need to take a step back from combat, rest to regain his vitality... Something along those lines.
I looked at FATE a few years
I looked at FATE a few years ago as a candidate for a RPG to play with my kids, but have not ended up playing it at least so far because it is way too complex even for me (including the Accelerated rules). I really like the dice, and so do my kids, and I bought several sets, and I like the elegance of having different aspects modifying things, putting little notes on the table with different advantages you can gain sounds great, but then there is so much else and so many different types of aspects and stuff, it really cries out for simplification. Could never figure out the combat system with all the different things that can be done offensively and defensively. I started writing my own super-simplified variant that has only one thing, Aspects, that covers everything and always works the same. I might try to play that with my kids some day.
Then I discovered FU (Freeform/Universal) that looks more like my thing. Printed my own dice labels and made a lot of custom dice in different colors to make it more fun to play, but we have yet to play that one as well (or RPG adventures so far has been limited to Hero Kids only).
http://perilplanet.com/fu-rpg/
Dice labels (in English and Swedish) are included as examples in this tool I made:
https://github.com/lifelike/countersheetsextension
The downside is that we will not get to use the Fudge/FATE dice if playing FU.
Included Fudge/FATE dice in a dice-roller I wrote for emacs. There is a shortcut configured for it (? F if I remember correctly) and it can be specified when typing in dice-specifiers as 4dF (again, if I remember correctly).
https://github.com/lifelike/decide-mode
Not quite
I do agree that 'stress damage' is simple, but it's not represented accurately by the statement that "every monster has '2 HP' so i guess I will try to explain it here!
Basically characters (and any non-minion enemy) has a physical and mental stress track, which is used in social conflicts.
Say your character has 3 Physical stress. This means you have a 1, a 2, and a 3 stress box.
If you're undamaged, and are hit in combat for 2 stress, you cross off your 2 stress box. Now you have a 1 and a 3 box. If you take another 2 damage, you have to cross off the 3 box, leaving you with the 1. If you take *another* 2 stress damage, your 1 box won't cover it, so you'll need to reduce the damage by taking a Consequence.
Consequences are basically traits that can be tagged by the GM to get bonuses, or you can compel yourself with them to regain FATE points; that kind of thing.
Characters can take a mild -2 Consequence, a moderate -4, and a severe -6 Consequence. These take different amounts of time to recover, and also indicate the level of skill check you'll need to overcome to enter that recovery period.
Stress damage recovers immediately after combat, but Consequences are real damage - even if they only last a scene long (a mild one that might represent "Got to catch your breath" or in a social contest "Really pressed your buttons."
As for Gabe, i think he said he personally prefers the Fudge/Fate system OVER a d6 or a d20 system.
Silly me...
I thought he meant "superposition"! Prefer FATE on top of a d6 or d20 system... My bad, re-reading it now and I'm the one who misunderstood.
Sorry I thought he was looking to "blend" both systems and use some common features from both systems maybe producing a closer approximation to a Fudge system...
Silly me. :)