Domestic vs Foreign (China, Russia, Mexico) Manufacturing

I am just starting out on this adventure myself. The primary cost components in my game is a set of wooden tiles with images printed on them (not to mention two decks of cards and packaging). I could probably do this significantly cheaper if I were to just do cardboard, but I want to at least attempt the wood for the asthetic.

I had gotten quotes from some companies in the states, but these have proved to be cost prohibitive, particularly at the very small quantities I'm interested in for a first run.

I just recently discovered http://www.alibaba.com which may solve my problems. Perhaps I'm being idealistic, but I put up a request for quote for just the tiles and got back 8 responses in a couple of days, including some rough quotes which are significantly lower than what I expected (even for my small quantity of 500 units.. still 20k+ tiles). One of the companies even appears to be the company that manufactured "Octiles" for OTB's masterpiece line.

I still have no clue as to how shipping will cost/work, or how I will ensure that I'm getting what I'm asking for, but I think I'm going to see how far I can get and how comfortable I am before forking over some cash.

peace,
Tom

John
Have you posted a link to your website in the Web Resources section of this site? It be great to have it there if you already haven't. 8)

Anyone got some overseas playing card manufacturers that gave them good price quotes?

OTOH, if you are looking for small rounds (1000, 500, even 200), you might benefit from printing in a small market used to those kind of figures. Here in Uruguay you'll be able to find excellent printers for small quantities, at a really good price.

But then you have a not so efficient freight cost. And there's the very reasonable fear of not being able to be on site to supervise the production, which is a backside.

I've thought more than once about starting a company for games or game printed pieces production here to foreign customers. I think it might be succesfull if I can reach a small run market (if such a market really exists). I would handle the production supervision, as this is part of what I do for a living as a graphic designer. I know very trustable printers, so that side of the business would be relatively easy to implement. But then, I know nothing about exporting products, freights, etc., so every time I begun thinking about this idea I end up leaving it for some time later, when I have the time to do some research about all those issues (as if I'll ever have the time!).

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that printing costs for small runs might make overseas production make sense if you need small runs too. It's all about finding the right price.

As for which country might be best, you might want to look in Ireland. They used to have some big tax exemptions for printed products. Corel used to print their manuals in Ireland for this reason.

Seo

I have to say that "Made in America" has no sway over people's choices of goods. Even American compannies don't produce much of their product in America. Sure, things may be finally assembled here, but almost all mass-production is going overseas. I myself am currently workiing with fabricators in India for my line of educational products. Why? Because for one-tenth the price, I get a product that is, generally, quality workmanship.

I seem to sense that quality work is still an ethic there. Too often, American companies insist on whatever the market will bear, and then act surprised when the market just goes elsewhere. i think we'd be foolish to stay domestic, just to stay domestic. Let the domestic market come down to the level where it's a viable resource again.

Frankly, the developing world isn't lacking in skilled materials workers, or any other type of human being. I do see possible problems, though, in not being on-site to assure quality, but I'm expecting prototypes in a few weeks, and I'll see the work then.

And as to not giving money to a country the US might be at war with in a few years, we're in a major military conflict every seven years, on average, and lately that number has been moving upwards. I'm not going to wait for world peace to look for cheap meeples.

I have used domestic, Canadian, and Chinese printers. The best prices I get are from the Chinese, and to use them you have to understand a few things:

1) Turnaround time. It takes about 55-60 days to get your product, sometimes up to 75 days. Could even be longer depending on the complexity of your components. There could also be delays in customs (I've had that happen to me on two occasions). The longest it took from the time they got disks to my warehouse was 90 days. However, they are good at advance shipping a small quantity (but you pay for it).

2) Price of shipping. So far even with shipping the Chinese prices have been amazing. Yes, you have to figure in the cost of shipping but still you can beat out the price of domestic printers by a significant amount. The more units you do the more you can amortize the cost. It's ok if you don't fill a 20' containier cause you'll probably share it with another company's products. There is something called a headload which is cheaper (usually) but it takes more time as they have to break down the container separating the orders. So far, the most I paid was $3600 and that was for a full container coming to a warehouse in NJ. You can save money and time if you can get it shipped and stored in California (around the LA area). When shipping to the east coast you are either landing in LA and trucking to your location or landing in NY. But I've paid as low as $1800 for a shipment of a few pallets.

3) Minimim quantity: to go Chinese, you usually need to order a min. of 3000 units. The lowest I talked a printer into doing was 2500 units. I doubt you can do better, but it depends on your relationship with the printer and who you go with (I've only dealt with a couple of Chinese printers, certainly a drop in the proverbial bucket).

4) Quality: I'm impressed by the quality the Chinese printers have shown. But I probably shouldn't be: if I want cards on 14pt playing card stock, it should be the same no matter where I print. The things people don't understand is that they say give me the cheapest price then cry when the quality of their components suck. I ask for a specific quality and then ask for the cheapest price with that quality.

5) Communication: Most Chinese printers have US agents so there isn't that much mis-communication. However, when dealing with the printer direct, sometimes communication is a problem and you end up getting something you don't want. Whenever possible, supply your printer with a sample of what you want. I wanted a certain stock of cardboard but I didn't know the thickness and couldn't describe it so I took out samples from a game I own and sent it to the printer and said that is what I want. The more info you give them the better chance you'll get what you want. Will you get it at the price you want? Not always.

I used to always give US companies a chance to quote a game (and I still use US printers for RPGs), but their prices were outrageous: the quantities I need (and can afford) and to be honest the market itself, makes printing board games very, very difficult in the US. I print realistically, usually no more than 3000 units of a game. I'm not in the position to print and sell 10K units at this point. I guess when I am then US printer prices will seem a lot more attractive.

Last thing: I got a quote from a German printer which wasn't too bad IF the euro wasn't kicking the crap out the dollar. It was less than US pricing but a little more than Chinese prices - and the shipping would have been al ittle cheaper and faster. (Shipping to east coast would be the main route).

Hope this helps.

Obviously I'm exaggerating and oversimplifying in a huge way, but hopefully the point I'm trying to get at comes through...

You are, but it doesn't. The economic boost provided by a product occurs, mostly , in the country in which that product is sold, rather than the one in which it is manufactured. Every step of the chain has a higher markup than the previous one, and if I sell my products in the US, the money goes to my company, which is a US company. That helps the economy directly.

And, as a matter of fact, the workers in developed nations such as India and China are not the exploited workers you seem to imply. Wages are low therefor many reasons, the first and foremost of which is that their cost of living is, in absolute terms, far less than American averages.

Next, every worker in India and China has, on average, anywhere from ten to a thousand times the domestic competition for work. This keeps their individual value down for employers, and has nothing to do with systematic exploitation. After working as a freelance illustrator, I found the same thing. I couln't charge any normal rate becuase of the influx of competitors willing to work for dirt, or for nothing. There's always someone willing to work for less. And if that someone outnumbers you by a factor of ten, you'r pay will go down (India), or you will lose your job (the US).

Remember, Us companies chose to outsource work because Us workers were too expensive, and cut into their profit. Now that the manufacturing base is no longer domestic, it's foolish to dream it will ever return. The computer industry didn't loose out" to asian fabrication plants and Japanese management. The willingly moved their processes overseas so they could keep the lucerative end of the production chain (the final sale of a finished product) here in the US. That's where the money is. And that, in the end, is what is good for a country's economy.

Let's be careful with the politics, folks. It does affect production decisions, I know, and so I think it's ok to mention. Just be careful it doesn't turn to personal attacks (or even just broad attacks, like "people who belong to party X are").

So far so good!

-- Matthew

Well, by developed, I was refering to the production base, which is pretty sophisticated in both countries. Granted, there are plenty of places in these countries that are very backwards, but travel through South Dakota and you'll wonder what country you're in, sometimes, too. Just kidding, South Dakota!

Personally, I'd love to use domestic manufacturing, don't get me wrong. I just find the pricing prohibitive, sicne the quality doesn't seem to be any higher.

But this touches on another subject altogether, that I'm very interested in for my educational games company: foriegn markets. I think that if we could get our games into either contry in an effective way, it would be huge. does anyone here have nay idea whant the boardgame "culture" is like in India, China, or South America? Or, for that matter, the educational games market?