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Hidden information suggestions needed

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Thu, 12/02/2010 - 19:05
innuendo
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I'm working on a new side project and am having a mental hurdle. A large part of the game needs to be deception and controlling information about your force until you actually enter battle.

The basics are pretty standard fare, armies on a hex grid. The issue Is these armies will be comprised of 3 types of soldier in various amounts. Each group of soldiers (a regiment if you will) will be one token each and will be group into larger groups called armies (which move as one unit), but on the board I don't want the other player to know the exact number of mix of each army unless the game dictates.

The only thing I can think of is some sort of blind set up on the table where by players can keep the groups of armies divided out of sight of the other player, with each army represented by a generic "army token" on the board. Players would move the army and when necessary reveal the armies contents to their opponent by revealing that army from their blind. This seems nice because it allows complex armies to evolve, but it seems like it could lead to two bad scenarios.

A) Cheating, players dishonestly revealing or making moves behind the blind that would be impossible to detect to the other player
B) Blinds are big and awkward and make playing the game potentially physically cumbersome.

Are there any games out there with a successful execution of this idea, or any good brain stormers out there with a better idea? Any help is appreciated.

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Thu, 12/02/2010 - 20:41
#1
Relexx
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Cards would make it simple.

Cards would make it simple. Have labeled army tokens, then have labels where you place the tables. Cards are then placed face down on the table. All the other players can see is the card stacks. The army is then revealed by turning the cards over.

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Fri, 12/03/2010 - 05:33
#2
ilSilvano
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I agree with Relexx

...and of course you can also have some blank cards to put in some stacks to bluff, so your opponent does not know exactly how many "real" cards are in each army.

Uhm... maybe a pile of large tokens is better than a stack of cards, but that's the general idea.

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Fri, 12/03/2010 - 10:31
#3
Louard
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Last minute army set up.

Depending on the size of an army (unit whatever) this could bog the game down by taking too long, but here's a thought...

On the board, armies are represented by tokens, on one side of the token there's a value which usually isn't visible because it's flipped over. When it comes time to battle, players flip the involved tokens to reveal the value of the armies involved. Then, behind shields, players form up the contents of their army using a cost mechanic and not exceeding the army's value.

Cheating is curtailed by the fact that upon revealing their armies, the players can easily have a quick count and make sure their opponent was honest. You could even institute a penalty for dishonesty.
As far as the counters themselves are concerned, players could bring army counters into play from a 'reserve' that's clearly visible to the opponent. When purchasing an army a player could pay whatever cost, reveal the value to the opponent for an honesty check and then place that army in his reserve, face down. That way, if I have 3 armies in reserve, you may remember I have a 5, a 6 and a 10, but you don't know which one I've just brought into play during my deployment phase.

What you lose, of course, is the tremendous need to plan ahead, as you can always make decisions about what units exactly will comprise an army at the time of a battle.

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Fri, 12/03/2010 - 20:03
#4
rcjames14
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Number as Type

As I understand it, your principle problem is that you don't have a way to keep the number of tokens in the armies hidden. The actual type of the tokens can easily be kept secret by turning them over. But, if you want to keep the number of tokens hidden as well you can either use dummy tokens (hidden behind a blind) as others have pointed out, or you can make number a type. So, a single token can represent a number of units. When the unit is revealed, the number can be replaced by a corresponding number of single units before battle begins.

However, if you also want to be able to subdivide your units and rearrange them in any type of combinations, then this method will still prove inadequate. But, I'm afraid that at some point, you're going to run into a verification problem (unless this is handled by a computer).

What cards and tokens allow you to do is often verify that something has been drawn/moved/played without revealing what it is. But, what you want to do is eliminate the concept of that something has been played as well. And, I think there are limits to this. At some point down the line, players need to be able to verify that the other players have taken a valid move.

The best I can suggest if the number as type doesn't go far enough is to play with a blind and a given number of dummy units depending upon how much hidden information you need. You still won't be able to hide the difference between your input and your output... so, if players know that you have 15 legitimate tokens and they see 18 on the board, then they know that there are at least 3 dummies. But, you will have introduced a means of maintaining hidden information which will probably be adequate for your game unless you game is actually only about hidden information.

Unfortunately this solution may in fact be worse than the cure... because it will explode any notion of locationality. Units can be taken off the board and redeployed far away without any way to validate this. However, as ilSilvano has suggested, you might be able to overcome this by introducing a certain number of dummy cards into the mix.

As a side note, if units have costs and can be purchased throughout the game, you might consider allowing players to buy dummy units under a separate cost structure related to a side's effort at misinformation/disinformation. If you can put a lot of resources into making it look like your forces are everywhere, there may be strategic reasons to do so over real units. And, you have introduced an additional strategic consideration.

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Sun, 12/05/2010 - 01:27
#5
tridagam
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about 200 years ago

About 1974 a friend was working on a game with a similar need...but his game was more political and grand strategy was often the play...armies were leverage.

Long story short we would make our own devices for play...Mine were bamboo skewers glued to nickels as a base. Colored beads on the skewer would make a totems of sorts. Different colored beads in different orders would mean different configurations. Easily verifiable by a 3rd party.

Everyone made their own system...This allowed information to be deduced on force size and configuration during the game, if you were able to figure out the opponents system. We drank lots of beer and played for days on end...It was the 70's.

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Sun, 12/05/2010 - 02:07
#6
irdesigns510
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Cool device.

tridagam wrote:
About 1974 a friend was working on a game with a similar need...but his game was more political and grand strategy was often the play...armies were leverage.

Long story short we would make our own devices for play...Mine were bamboo skewers glued to nickels as a base. Colored beads on the skewer would make a totems of sorts. Different colored beads in different orders would mean different configurations. Easily verifiable by a 3rd party.

Everyone made their own system...This allowed information to be deduced on force size and configuration during the game, if you were able to figure out the opponents system. We drank lots of beer and played for days on end...It was the 70's.

That is awesome. kinda like Mastermind, only different.
one question, what happens when a portion of an army loses men? do you adjust the beads, or do they just kinda regenerate back up to full health at end of turn like creatures in Magic: the gathering?

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Sun, 12/05/2010 - 16:40
#7
tridagam
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Master mind LOL never looked at it like that

My system I would read just the beads...I got the skewers at the super market...beads from the crafts store... small plastic beads... I would leave room for 8 and 10 beads (Different post size)...the selection was 6 solid colors and 6 semi translucent.

it also made it simple to split the groups. Number and configuration would depend on units and numbers playing with as well as the numbers being lost in battles (1's,10's,100's....)

for me I would assign a solid for a number of units and a translucent as to what that unit is...this would change from game to game...so:

__color__________(S)solid____________(T)translucent__________________
(R) red ...................1 .....................................Archers
(G) Green ...............5......................................Pike
(B) Blue..................10.....................................skirmish
(O) Orange.............20.....................................light horse
(W) White................50.................................... heavy horse
(BK) BLACK.............100.....................................siege weapon

A post with

sr
sb
tb
sg
tw

would mean 11 skirmishers and 5 heavy horse.

There is no reason you can't have multiple posts on a base...giving even more configurations. And little animal beads can cap the posts off to indicate the players.

like I said others would do other things. One friend took the bamboo post system put a little glue about 1/4 down the post and glued small flags to the same type of bead I used. he Kept his info in an accounts ledger...that worked very well to.

The game map was cool looking with all the flags and totems ...and coalition forces felt daunting. lots of colors and unknowns....had major impact on tactics and strategies and grand strategies.

If you want to use a system like that I would suggest make it adjustable by players. and the color choices need to fit your game...

Now I want to find my old Friend and see if he still has the game rules and materials he used...

good luck on your endeavor! And let me know what you did on it.

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