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Last player disadvantage

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simons
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Joined: 12/28/2008

Hey All,

Thanks for your advice last time. I have another question, that I would appreciate ideas on:

The current game I'm working on ("For Science!!!"), players control teams of scientists, who are racing around a crashing space-ship, hoping to get their scientists to escape pods. Players get more points the longer their scientists stay on the ship (but then they run a higher risk of not escaping). Players play cards to gain short-term effects, and capture tokens on the board (I ended up calling them "prototype tokens") to gain powers and extra points. The game can end during any player's turn, and generally lasts ~10 turns.

Here's my problem: By acting earlier, I think you get a small jump on the other players. I think it's small, as it hasn't been obvious yet (although I'll admit, I haven't kept track of how often the first and last players win). But, if you are the last player to go, you generally get one fewer turn than the first player, so I feel like there must be some disadvantage. Right now I'm debating if I need to correct this, and if so, then how. Have any of you had this problem in the past? How do you determine when going first or last that it is problematic enough to need intervention? Also, if you have had this problem, what did you do to fix it? So far I've been brainstorming the following ideas:
1) Give later players a slightly better initial setup
2) When the game ends, if a finite victory point resource has not been exhausted, players are allowed to buy them. The player who went last gets the first opportunity, then it goes backwards (and thus, the first player is the least likely to be able to get said resources).
3) Later players begin the game with extra cards.
4) In the event of a draw, the last player to go wins.
5) Later players are given a point or two at the beginning.

Any thoughts?

Simon

Dralius
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Joined: 07/26/2008
Numbers

Although your proposed solutions might do the trick there is no need to explore them until you know for sure there is a problem and exactly what that problem is.

Keep a log of win/loss for each position and the scores for all test games. I generally do this for games where the win condition is the most points. If there is a pattern it will emerge from the data.

Pastor_Mora
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Joined: 01/05/2010
Progressive Turn Order

Have the second player in a round go first in the next one. If there is actually and advantage, everyone will benefit from it at some point, so it kind of balances out.

Drawback is that every first player on a round will have to wait for two rounds to take a turn again (the remaining of the first one, and all the second one up to him being the last). Good thing is they usually use this time to go to the bath, some quick texting or something. So it's not a big deal.

Keep thinking!

hulken
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Joined: 04/18/2009
There is several ways you can

There is several ways you can go at this problem.

1. Give the other players an bonus, the further "back" you start the bigger bonus.
2. Have a roling turn order, first player moves to last place and every one els moves up one stepp for the next round.
3. Have al players do there moves simultainius. Al players choose there moves seacretly (might not be able to get this ome in youre game).
4. When the game ends alow al players that have not made a move yet this turn to make one last move. This way al players gets the exact number of moves.

Well thats the 4 difeferent solutions I see to our problem.

ReneWiersma
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Joined: 08/08/2008
hulken wrote:4. When the game

hulken wrote:
4. When the game ends alow al players that have not made a move yet this turn to make one last move. This way al players gets the exact number of moves.

This is probably the best solution, because it makes sure all players get an equal number of turns. If that for some reason isn't feasible then giving the first players less resources and/or worse resources to work with or consequently the later players more and/or better resources to work with is a good way to go.

If your game has a fair amount of player interaction then maybe this already levels the playing field somewhat too (players picking on the players who are ahead).

If the game lasts only ten turns per player then I do think that getting one turn more or less will matter quite a bit and it is probably something to address.

simons
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Joined: 12/28/2008
Thanks for the comments so

Thanks for the comments so far.

I will start keeping a list of who wins any given game. There is a large amount of player interaction, so maybe that will tend to counteract any advantages. Also, I've noticed that not every player uses all of their turns to the fullest (since once all of your scientists have escaped the ship, you're often somewhat done).

At this point, it's not really feasible to give everyone a last turn. As it stands, the game ends either when the ship blows up (thus killing everyone left on board) or when the last escape pod launches (thus taking away any last opportunities to gain points). I might be able to tweek the first of those two endings, but I'm not really sure if it'd be worth the extra complications. Also, I'm a little hesitant to do a rolling turn order, as I think that would really complicate things.

I probably will do some sort of resource difference or bonus, although I wanted to ask, are there any games out there where turn order is a tie-breaker? What do people think of that?

DogBoy
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Joined: 12/15/2009
simons wrote:Here's my

simons wrote:
Here's my problem: By acting earlier, I think you get a small jump on the other players. I think it's small, as it hasn't been obvious yet (although I'll admit, I haven't kept track of how often the first and last players win). But, if you are the last player to go, you generally get one fewer turn than the first player, so I feel like there must be some disadvantage. Right now I'm debating if I need to correct this, and if so, then how. Have any of you had this problem in the past? How do you determine when going first or last that it is problematic enough to need intervention? Also, if you have had this problem, what did you do to fix it? So far I've been brainstorming the following ideas:
1) Give later players a slightly better initial setup
2) When the game ends, if a finite victory point resource has not been exhausted, players are allowed to buy them. The player who went last gets the first opportunity, then it goes backwards (and thus, the first player is the least likely to be able to get said resources).
3) Later players begin the game with extra cards.
4) In the event of a draw, the last player to go wins.
5) Later players are given a point or two at the beginning.

Any thoughts?

Simon

You need to consider two possible problems:
a) Later players tend to score fewer points, or
b) Later players don't get to play as much.

If b) impacts noticeably on the game, you need to solve it with a mechanism which allows later players to make more choices during their turns, e.g. giving them extra cards (or drafting cards earlier). Or one which allows players to choose their turn order before the game begins (e.g. bidding points for priority).

If a) is the only noticeable problem (or if neither problem is noticeable), then your options are wider.

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