Oops, sorry, running a bit late. I'll have the game up sometime tomorrow.
-- Matthew
(Bad administrators, bad examples!) :)
Oops, sorry, running a bit late. I'll have the game up sometime tomorrow.
-- Matthew
(Bad administrators, bad examples!) :)
FastLearner,
I have been looking forward to seeing your game all day! I hope you will post it tomorrow!
--DarkDream
There seems to be something funky with my server, but you should be able to see the sample cards here:
http://www.genimuse.com/games/cowtipping/CowTippingCardSamples.pdf
I'll upload the rules once the server starts functioning correctly again.
-- Matthew
Doesn't work for me. :( :( http://www.genimuse.com/ isn't responding either.
Works now. Wow really nice cards!
Worked fine for me. Fun cards!
peace,
Tom
If your site won't work, why not use the GDW area in the "Downloads" section? It should be pretty quick, particularly since you're an Admin, and will avoid the scenario where you burn even more of your already half-over GDW session waiting for your server to work...
Those cow cards crack me up! Thanks for the early morning laugh! I've GOT to see these rules!! :lol:
Update: They also pass the Cow-Loving Wife test!
This is not exactly fair you know. To show really great looking cards wth interesting names and suits, and no rules. I agree with Jwarrend, flex your admin muscles and upload direct to BGDF.
Andy
Since the rules aren't out yet we are left to quibble over the lovely cards. :-)
Are the beauties supposed to have horns? Are these cross dressing cows? just curious.
peace,
Tom
Are these cross dressing cows?
Disclaimer: Above comment is a reference to an episode of Seinfeld and not an endorsement of cross-dressing. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Perhaps this is a conceptualist thing. Like, there are rules, but they're intentionally left out of the packaging, so the game players can only imagine what a great experience they'd have if they had the rules. It's the potential of the rules that makes the game what it is.
Gotta admit, it's not a great idea, but at least it doesn't require much playtesting. :wink:
Ok, here we go (I had to clean up the rules -- they were just too hard to understand, even though it's a simple game).
The rules are here:
http://www.genimuse.com/games/cowtipping/CowTippingRulesPrelim.pdf
The sample cards are still here (note that many of the cars and such go "backwards" in the sample cards -- they should be "driving" to the right):
http://www.genimuse.com/games/cowtipping/CowTippingCardSamples.pdf
More comments to follow.
So, would that make this breed of bovine Mao cows?
yuk yuk yuk... :lol:
Edit: And FL manages to post the rules just before I post this...making the reference to Mao moot...ah, pun not intended?
Ok, a few comments from me. :)
First, the rules are rough. Hopefully they're good enough for you to get the idea. And yes, the opening "story" is particularly lame, but I'm not feeling terribly creative right now.
Second, I haven't calculated how difficult it is to get sets compared to run with this deck yet, so the precise numbers on the roads will need more balancing.
And third, I have several ideas for juicing up the game a bit, but I'd like to get comments on this stuff first. I have some ideas for laying off, and some ideas for special powers each gang has. But let's see where this goes. :)
Oops, one more comment: this is one of my least developed games -- it was really just an idea I got one night that I haven't really worked through very much -- so if you feel any urge to tear it apart, there's no need to hold back. :)
First, the rules are rough. Hopefully they're good enough for you to get the idea. And yes, the opening "story" is particularly lame, but I'm not feeling terribly creative right now.
You are far too hard on yourself. On first read, the rules look very good...I'm pretty sure I've got a good idea howto play, at least with regard to the mechanics, and the opening flavor text was fine by me!
"Cows Come Home" was very clever, in my book, and I still crack up at those silly cow faces! (yeah, I'm easily amused)
More in-depth review/critique will come after I've had a chance to digest the rules more and simmer on them some, but they look very clear and explanative (a word?) on first glance.
Are the beauties supposed to have horns? Are these cross dressing cows? just curious.
-- Matthew
"Cows Come Home" was very clever, in my book, and I still crack up at those silly cow faces! (yeah, I'm easily amused)
-- Matthew
I like it so far. But I agree with your own comments about the probabilities. With 5 suits, that last road piece will be really hard to make a 5set. Especially late in the round as several runs have probably been made. Also note that if a +1 vehicle is there, then it becomes impossible to do a Set, and you will have to get a run.
I would suggest some sort of way to score points based upon which piece of the road you knock a vehicle from. So to reward those willing/able to make the larger runs/sets. So maybe the vehicles aren't in stacks, but upon the run/set you used to track this.
I like the color collection thing. :) That is something I used in Tourney and probably my favorite bit of it.
It does seem like it could be a bit frustrating to not be able to tip anythign without the Elsa marker. So in large player number games you would only get the oppurtunity to tip every PlayerNUmber rounds, so if you miss a round of tipping you are in more trouble.
I have a few comments on the graphics part of things. I know this is a prototype, but I feel the need to mention these. First, the Small Suit markers under the numbers need to be simpiler. Each CowType seems to have a distinguishing featuer, maybe just use that for the suit. Lipstick for the Clowns, Bow for the Beauties, Glasses for the Homies. That would make it easier to distinguish. For the vehicles, if the color makes a difference in scoring, make sure there is a second identifier of the color other than the color itself. Maybe the Word of the Color somewhere, this helps color-blind and low-light gaming. The Ordinals should go on your little charts of number, ala Bohnanza. And think about using Black instead of all the colors for those numbers.
So at the end of each Round (up until the Barn is drawn) you sort and score the vehicles twice. Once by type and once by Color right?
Overall I think it is certainly neat. It is essentially a rummy variant right? I like those for family type games, especially as most people already know rummy. However, if your probabilities of your Roads don't work out nice, you might think of two things: either Poker hands sort of thing, or look at Phase 10 for different types of things to use.
Nice work, and interesting theme.
Andy
Those that don't think cows have horns but that bulls do are clearly city boys and girls. :)
well I feel sheepish.
You learn something every day, I guess the cows at the dairy farm 1/2 mile from my house are polled cattle :-)
peace,
Tom
I like it so far. But I agree with your own comments about the probabilities. With 5 suits, that last road piece will be really hard to make a 5set. Especially late in the round as several runs have probably been made. Also note that if a +1 vehicle is there, then it becomes impossible to do a Set, and you will have to get a run.
I would suggest some sort of way to score points based upon which piece of the road you knock a vehicle from. So to reward those willing/able to make the larger runs/sets. So maybe the vehicles aren't in stacks, but upon the run/set you used to track this.
I like the color collection thing. :) That is something I used in Tourney and probably my favorite bit of it.
It does seem like it could be a bit frustrating to not be able to tip anythign without the Elsa marker. So in large player number games you would only get the oppurtunity to tip every PlayerNUmber rounds, so if you miss a round of tipping you are in more trouble.
I have a few comments on the graphics part of things. I know this is a prototype, but I feel the need to mention these. First, the Small Suit markers under the numbers need to be simpiler. Each CowType seems to have a distinguishing featuer, maybe just use that for the suit. Lipstick for the Clowns, Bow for the Beauties, Glasses for the Homies. That would make it easier to distinguish.
For the vehicles, if the color makes a difference in scoring, make sure there is a second identifier of the color other than the color itself. Maybe the Word of the Color somewhere, this helps color-blind and low-light gaming.
The Ordinals should go on your little charts of number, ala Bohnanza. And think about using Black instead of all the colors for those numbers.
So at the end of each Round (up until the Barn is drawn) you sort and score the vehicles twice. Once by type and once by Color right?
Overall I think it is certainly neat. It is essentially a rummy variant right? I like those for family type games, especially as most people already know rummy.
However, if your probabilities of your Roads don't work out nice, you might think of two things: either Poker hands sort of thing, or look at Phase 10 for different types of things to use.
Nice work, and interesting theme.
-- Matthew
FastLearner wrote:
Those that don't think cows have horns but that bulls do are clearly city boys and girls. :)
well I feel sheepish.
You learn something every day, I guess the cows at the dairy farm 1/2 mile from my house are polled cattle :-)
:) Commonly cows' horns are either cut off or (maybe more commonly) a few drops of acid are put on them while they're calves, keeping the horns from growing. The same is common with bulls/steer.
It's a common misperception. And there are breeds of cattle that have no horns at all, though they're less common.
--Matthew
Well it makes a nice contrast with my game next week, which has lots of bits, lots of rules and lasts about three hours (and that's just reading the rules ;)
A very nice take on Rummy (once again, proving how versatile it is as a format!)
Couple of quick comments: Firstly, I recall the chat we had about passing markers around, and I can see why you were having trouble.
I was slightly confused by the bit in the rules which said that you laid out the traffic cards "as shown" - I thought initially that you meant to use the cards you show in the example diagram (especially as you do mean that for the road cards.) I can't think of a better way to put it though.
And as for it being a "least developed game" - my game Fire and Ice was less developed than this and that made it into the Hippodice judging :) It clearly needs balance testing, but the central concepts are obviously solid.
I read the rules and it appears to be quite clear.
Things I liked about the game:
1) interesting and lovable theme (would appeal to younger and older audiences and moms)
2) great idea of cowtipping (I think kids would really think it is cool)
3) like the fact that if you discard a card you place it face up on the discard pile (a la "Lost Cities")
4) Simple two player gangs
5) Alternate ways of scoring with color and same amount of vehical (in a way multiple ways of scoring thus victory conditions). I think this is your games strongest point.
There are a few things I do not like:
1) I think having Elsa in order to to tip would be frustrating for players. I would like to see it removed.
2) Right now the way the traffic cards are (you mention the symbols represent how tilted the road is) it appears to be on one large hill. What's wrong of shuffling the cards or adding more cards to be shuffled and playing them so you have a surface of a hilly region. I think it is important to try to make each game different every time.
The main difficulty in the game that might break it is that you have a steady stream of vehicals. What I think will happen is that people will simply just concentrate on the four traffic cards with the lower amount of cards needed to cow tip a vehical. I don't think people will go ahead and even try to tip a motorcyle, for instance, in a more tilted traffic square, as they now one will come around pretty soon.
[EDITED: I may have this wrong, I guess the cars start on the harder road squares. This helps greatly, but with having so many cards, maybe the reverse will occur. My basic point of scarcity and tension, I believe is still valid though.]
In Costco, they only sell a special item once and never sell it again. The reason is to create a sense of urgency of getting it. To increase competition and tension between the players, they have to be uncertain that one is going to turn up soon and create a *scarcity* of them. As such, I suggest
3) Amongst the vehical cards, you have quite a few blank vehical cards (no one can tip these). This is to create scarcity and urgency. The blank cards would not have to be placed but simply discarded and no vehical is simply added to the entering traffic square.
4) The vehical cards have a number telling you how many squares to move (if there are blank spaces), of course, stopping behind a car if it can not go the full amount. This can make some vehicals go faster around the road, creating them harder to cow tip.
5) Have a car crash card or kids going across the road vehical card. The player that picks this card can put the card in an empty square that will hold up traffic moving for a certain time.
Even with these changes, I don't think people will still go for the more difficult road squares. In order to help against this, here a few suggestions:
6) Have a "bull gang" of three bulls a "no bull gang" that can tip any car over regardless of what road card.
7) On the road card, have specific "run gang" of a specific type (clowns for instance) that can cow tip.
Some further suggestions:
1) Give Elsa some lipstick. A daisy behind her ear would be a great touch.
2) I would state in the rules that the player who cow tips the most cars is the winner not just because of points is because Elsa would fall in love with the player (like Clyde) who orgainzed the gangs that proved to be the strongest (tipped the best). I would have a picture of Elsa with a kiss on the side under winning.
That's all for now, but I hope this sparks some ideas of your own.
Good start.
--DarkDream
Well, I thought about it on the drive home, and I'm not sure I can offer much in the way of improvements. It seems pretty good right now. Granted, you may have to play with the math, as has been previously discussed in the thread, but playtesting will also indicate that. So, on with random thoughts (in no particular order) -
104 cards = 2 standard decks - 6 cards. That gives you a little room to play with, if you like. 6 reference cards are easy, or 6 specials, or 6 advertisements. Just don't put the rules on cards!
Draw 1, discard 1 - nice and simple. If a draw the barn, round ends. If I have Elsa, I get to go have fun! (Cows With Guns...oh, that would probably be a copyright infringement...oops!) After wreaking havoc, Elsa moves counter to the direction that play rotates.
In a 4-player game, there's 3 turns of planning, right? (Pardon me while I think aloud) A, B, C, and D are sitting around the table, clockwise from A. A has Elsa. On A's turn, E goes to D, and then it's B's turn, followed by C's turn, followed by D's turn. At the end of D's turn, E goes to C. Now it's A's second turn (first after having Elsa), then B, then C. After C's turn, E goes to B. Then D, then A's third turn (second after having Elsa), then B. After B's turn, E goes to A. Then C, then D, then A's fourth turn (third after having Elsa).
What does this mean? This means in a 4-player game, you'll get to hand-manage 3 cards before you get another shot. Is this bad? No, I don't think so. I'm assuming you only go to 5, not 6, since you specifically mentioned a 5-player game (Elsa goes 2 players) and not 6?
I like that the cars get easier to tip the further up the road you go. That adds the potential for angst - "Do I shoot my wad to get that now, or see if I can sneak it out later?" Anytime you make the decision tough you make the game a little more interesting, IMO. (Note that if you wait until your next shot, it might be gone! But, if you go for it now, an even juicier target may show up! Argh!)
I think I'm going to respectfully disagree that you need ordinals on the vehicle cards. I think it's quite intuitive that if you have 1, you score the top, 2, the second number, etc.
I am going to respectfully agree that the suit indicators should probably be more different from each other, to better distinguish them. Also, some publishers might be a little sensitive about "Homies", so you might want to try to find another suit? Again, I agree that you need to back up color differentiation with something for the color-blind, but it sounds like you're already set there with your playtest group.
That's mighty fine concept art!! Can I get you to do my game? :wink:
You might consider allowing players with Elsa to tip before discarding, and possibly allow the option to not discard in this instance. That might make some of the "earlier" vehicles a little easier to get.
Another thought would be to put some kind of mnemonic (sp?) device on the vehicles to remind players that if they have the most of that color, they score 9 points. Not sure how this would work, though...
And, to continue to play off the posts that are going up faster than I can type, I like the idea of maybe some special cars. Let's say, for example, a milk truck that is worth A LOT if you tip it (but it's a +2 or maybe even higher?)! You do, after all, have those 6 extra cards! :wink:
I also like the idea of an all-bull gang...maybe bulls, not only being wild, but could count as two cows (aren't they big and strong, or is that reflected in their "wildness"?)?
Should Clyde make a guest appearance, or is he mending his injuries after creating the initial crash?
Looks like a lot of fun! When can I buy it?
Ha! Was letting my wife read the rules (she loves it!) and I noticed you've got the little numbers in the corners of the road cards indicating the order they should be placed! VERY nice attention to detail!
I was also wondering if the cards the barn is mixed in should be larger, to allow for greater variabilitiy of when the game ends. 10 cards? 14?
Well it makes a nice contrast with my game next week, which has lots of bits, lots of rules and lasts about three hours (and that's just reading the rules ;)
A very nice take on Rummy (once again, proving how versatile it is as a format!)
Couple of quick comments: Firstly, I recall the chat we had about passing markers around, and I can see why you were having trouble.
I was slightly confused by the bit in the rules which said that you laid out the traffic cards "as shown" - I thought initially that you meant to use the cards you show in the example diagram (especially as you do mean that for the road cards.) I can't think of a better way to put it though.
And as for it being a "least developed game" - my game Fire and Ice was less developed than this and that made it into the Hippodice judging :) It clearly needs balance testing, but the central concepts are obviously solid.
Thanks for the comments,
Matthew
This may be obvious, but are "Bull Cards" also "Cow Cards?"
In other words, should they be shuffled in with what the component list identifies as the "Cow Cards?" It seems obvious that they should, but since the component list refers to the Bull Cards distinctly, I wasn't entirely sure.
Thanks!
I read the rules and it appears to be quite clear.
Things I liked about the game:
1) interesting and lovable theme (would appeal to younger and older audiences and moms)
2) great idea of cowtipping (I think kids would really think it is cool)
Thanks, I hoped the theme would come off as fun.
3) like the fact that if you discard a card you place it face up on the discard pile (a la "Lost Cities")
4) Simple two player gangs
5) Alternate ways of scoring with color and same amount of vehical (in a way multiple ways of scoring thus victory conditions). I think this is your games strongest point.
There are a few things I do not like:
1) I think having Elsa in order to to tip would be frustrating for players. I would like to see it removed.
Hopefully playtesting will determine how well it works. As it is right now you can tip every third turn (no, no, yes, no, no, yes)... hopefully it's just limiting enough that you have to plan ahead a bit but not so much that it's frustrating.
2) Right now the way the traffic cards are (you mention the symbols represent how tilted the road is) it appears to be on one large hill. What's wrong of shuffling the cards or adding more cards to be shuffled and playing them so you have a surface of a hilly region. I think it is important to try to make each game different every time.
The main difficulty in the game that might break it is that you have a steady stream of vehicals. What I think will happen is that people will simply just concentrate on the four traffic cards with the lower amount of cards needed to cow tip a vehical. I don't think people will go ahead and even try to tip a motorcyle, for instance, in a more tilted traffic square, as they now one will come around pretty soon.
[EDITED: I may have this wrong, I guess the cars start on the harder road squares. This helps greatly, but with having so many cards, maybe the reverse will occur. My basic point of scarcity and tension, I believe is still valid though.]
I think that folks will go ahead and tip the lesser vehicles for a couple of reasons: (1) there are many more than there are harder vehicles, and (2) I think it's already going to be pretty tough to get large gangs together. Again, though, playtesting willhave to prove it out.
In Costco, they only sell a special item once and never sell it again. The reason is to create a sense of urgency of getting it. To increase competition and tension between the players, they have to be uncertain that one is going to turn up soon and create a *scarcity* of them. As such, I suggest
3) Amongst the vehical cards, you have quite a few blank vehical cards (no one can tip these). This is to create scarcity and urgency. The blank cards would not have to be placed but simply discarded and no vehical is simply added to the entering traffic square.
As I mentioned above, I think it's already going to be pretty tough to get gangs together, so I suspect that blank cars will make things even tougher, increasing the luck factor.
4) The vehical cards have a number telling you how many squares to move (if there are blank spaces), of course, stopping behind a car if it can not go the full amount. This can make some vehicals go faster around the road, creating them harder to cow tip.
5) Have a car crash card or kids going across the road vehical card. The player that picks this card can put the card in an empty square that will hold up traffic moving for a certain time.
Even with these changes, I don't think people will still go for the more difficult road squares. In order to help against this, here a few suggestions:
6) Have a "bull gang" of three bulls a "no bull gang" that can tip any car over regardless of what road card.
That's an interesting idea. The bulls are so rare right now that I'm not sure you could get a bull gang together... but it might be fun if the bulls are basically worth 2 cows or something. Hmm, I'll have to think about that. Good suggestion.
7) On the road card, have specific "run gang" of a specific type (clowns for instance) that can cow tip.
Some further suggestions:
1) Give Elsa some lipstick. A daisy behind her ear would be a great touch.
Nice idea, I'll do that.
2) I would state in the rules that the player who cow tips the most cars is the winner not just because of points is because Elsa would fall in love with the player (like Clyde) who orgainzed the gangs that proved to be the strongest (tipped the best). I would have a picture of Elsa with a kiss on the side under winning.
That's all for now, but I hope this sparks some ideas of your own.
-- Matthew
Well, I thought about it on the drive home, and I'm not sure I can offer much in the way of improvements. It seems pretty good right now. Granted, you may have to play with the math, as has been previously discussed in the thread, but playtesting will also indicate that. So, on with random thoughts (in no particular order) -
104 cards = 2 standard decks - 6 cards. That gives you a little room to play with, if you like. 6 reference cards are easy, or 6 specials, or 6 advertisements. Just don't put the rules on cards!
You've got a deal. :)
I was indeed shooting for 104 cards, figuring that would leave me a few to play with. See below.
Draw 1, discard 1 - nice and simple. If a draw the barn, round ends. If I have Elsa, I get to go have fun! (Cows With Guns...oh, that would probably be a copyright infringement...oops!) After wreaking havoc, Elsa moves counter to the direction that play rotates.
In a 4-player game, there's 3 turns of planning, right? (Pardon me while I think aloud) A, B, C, and D are sitting around the table, clockwise from A. A has Elsa. On A's turn, E goes to D, and then it's B's turn, followed by C's turn, followed by D's turn. At the end of D's turn, E goes to C. Now it's A's second turn (first after having Elsa), then B, then C. After C's turn, E goes to B. Then D, then A's third turn (second after having Elsa), then B. After B's turn, E goes to A. Then C, then D, then A's fourth turn (third after having Elsa).
What does this mean? This means in a 4-player game, you'll get to hand-manage 3 cards before you get another shot. Is this bad? No, I don't think so. I'm assuming you only go to 5, not 6, since you specifically mentioned a 5-player game (Elsa goes 2 players) and not 6?
The way it works out is that with either a 4 or 5 player game you get Elsa every third turn (no, no, yes, no, no, yes). I think that's about right. Unfortunately I don't have a way to do it with 3 players yet... if they pass right then they get it every other turn, which is too often for my taste.
It's not designed for 6... I think with 5 there will already be a card shortage problem.
I like that the cars get easier to tip the further up the road you go. That adds the potential for angst - "Do I shoot my wad to get that now, or see if I can sneak it out later?" Anytime you make the decision tough you make the game a little more interesting, IMO. (Note that if you wait until your next shot, it might be gone! But, if you go for it now, an even juicier target may show up! Argh!)
I think I'm going to respectfully disagree that you need ordinals on the vehicle cards. I think it's quite intuitive that if you have 1, you score the top, 2, the second number, etc.
I am going to respectfully agree that the suit indicators should probably be more different from each other, to better distinguish them. Also, some publishers might be a little sensitive about "Homies", so you might want to try to find another suit? Again, I agree that you need to back up color differentiation with something for the color-blind, but it sounds like you're already set there with your playtest group.
That's mighty fine concept art!! Can I get you to do my game? :wink:
You might consider allowing players with Elsa to tip before discarding, and possibly allow the option to not discard in this instance. That might make some of the "earlier" vehicles a little easier to get.
Another thought would be to put some kind of mnemonic (sp?) device on the vehicles to remind players that if they have the most of that color, they score 9 points. Not sure how this would work, though...
And, to continue to play off the posts that are going up faster than I can type, I like the idea of maybe some special cars. Let's say, for example, a milk truck that is worth A LOT if you tip it (but it's a +2 or maybe even higher?)! You do, after all, have those 6 extra cards! :wink:
I also like the idea of an all-bull gang...maybe bulls, not only being wild, but could count as two cows (aren't they big and strong, or is that reflected in their "wildness"?)?
Should Clyde make a guest appearance, or is he mending his injuries after creating the initial crash?
Looks like a lot of fun! When can I buy it?
-- Matthew
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You know... many years ago I went through this bovine period of my life... I started work on an animated film (that never got/never will get finished) and called my "studio" Square Cow Studios... and I was playing a LOT of Battle Cattle. Well, out of those games of Battle Cattle came the idea for a simplified board game version, where the purpose was only to TIP the other cows....
That never developed.
Now, years later, I'm reminded of that once-thought.
Funny how things go.
Tyler