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Player Participation Card Game Design QUESTION

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 14:06
Hasenfang
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Hey all,

I am curious if anyone has ever tried inventing a game, in which the players (if they choose to) are able to create their own Kingdom packs?

What I mean by this is; I see a LOT of Fifth Edition (5E) booklet additions on kickstarter, whipped up by a multitude of people, in helping expand that universe. I do not know the legalities of such constructs, as to whether or not commission based creations are thumbs up in the eyes of Wizards of The Coast, but that is besides the point.

I am curious if anyone has ever made a card dueling game, where the Attribution License would be more under Creative Commons, so that players may devise their own kingdom decks; within the rules/guidelines of that particular game.

Putting aside all game mechanics, I am wondering if such an idea would be possible? Say I make a starter pack on The Game Crafter, then allow any other players to then create their own Kingdom packs off the rules and designs of the original (perhaps allow them to download guidelines and .pdf files of the deck frames, which they can work around)?

This way, there is an endless supply of decks one can use from, solely based off the number of players interested in creating their own decks.

The only issues I can see coming across from this is...

*Cheating: Making your deck too powerful, outside the guidelines of the deck rules.

*Copyright Issues: Where the players are taking from artwork not in public domain, commissioned to them, or for commercial use.

I am curious if anyone would be interested in seeing such a creation made?

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 14:32
#1
questccg
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XTG3 initiative

The XTG3 initiative has a pilot project for "TradeWorlds" and it's purpose is to offer consumers a EULA which protects the "Designer", his/her Publisher and the rest of the gamer community by establishing rules associated with HOW the "expandability" of such a product is to be "controlled".

Why do these parties need a EULA?

Well it goes back to the simple facts about the licensing levels offered by the XTG3 licensing.

Level 1. (Closed) Demonstrates that a product will be "expandable" by the "Designer" and/or his/her Publisher ONLY.

Level 2. (Partial) Allows gamers and other designers to SUBMIT their expansion ideas to a global "mailbox". Ideas will be looked at and assessed to either be a valid or invalid submission. This level therefore opens up the "expandability" to a LARGER crowd of people.

Level 3. (Open) The Publisher will make available templates, logos, material to any one who is interested in designing their OWN "expansion" for one of the game under the XTG3 banner.

So what else does this EULA do?

The other thing is besides determining the CURRENT "License Level", it also serves to PROTECT brands from defamatory use or protection from third-party copyright breaches, etc. That's another important point to consider. You might want to openly use Level 3... But you don't want to be the target of any legal disputes in the event of a copyright breach.

The XTG3 EULA would serve to disassociate yourself with any and all guilty parties that have not respected the terms of the clauses in the EULA.

So while you MAY offer Level 3. Open Licensing... You would still be protected by the EULA ensuring that you are legally not responsible for any and all derivative works while under Open Licensing.

Terms of the EULA for each product are specified by the Publisher and his/her "designer". So while there is a GENERAL EULA, there can also be terms that make the global community aware that certain rules need to be respected when downloading templates, logos and other COPYRIGHT materials owned by the Publisher ... but merely made accessible under the terms and EULA.

It's sort of like: "If you want to design YOUR OWN 'expansion' for Game X, you need to respect the EULA and additional terms which dictate HOW a person may use the material made available to the public."

For more information about XTG3 Licensing visit:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/40222/xtg3

At the moment, I have not been able to get the EULA "drafted" and am only accepting games with the CLOSED (Level 1) Licensing.

But know that what you are thinking about is what the XTG3 Licensing stands for and offers in terms of accessibility and brand protection. Creative Commons licensing doesn't protect you from creating sexual Content for Mature Adults when games are for 9+ year olds. As one (1) example. Other material could be racial or sexist ... and you want CONTROL over who can use the branding.

So you do need a EULA and terms to protect your "reputation". Unfortunately at the moment, I don't have a good License Lawyer ... nor the interest to further this matter at the present time.

What this means that at the present time, since I cannot have the EULA drafted, games under the XTG3 banner for the time being, must be under CLOSED licensing (Level 1).

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 14:37
#2
Jay103
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I feel like I should know

I feel like I should know what you're talking about, but I'm not sure I do.

This is a Magic thing? A D&D thing? I don't know what a Kingdom Pack is.

To answer the general question.. no. I don't think you'd have success making a starter set of anything and hoping that competent people would add on good, salable content of any kind, with you out of the equation. If people are making their own cards, they're at the very least going to be overpowered. Also a bad fit, in conflict with other peoples' sets, stupidly complicated, etc.

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 15:05
#3
Hasenfang
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Neat.

Questccg: Wow, lots of info there. A great read, thanks for sharing. It helps give me info on the matter and how one might be able to control it.

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 15:00
#4
questccg
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Level 2 vs. Level 3

Jay103 wrote:
...If people are making their own cards, they're at the very least going to be overpowered. Also a bad fit, in conflict with other peoples' sets, stupidly complicated, etc.

This is something also addressed by the XTG3 initiative. How? Well the idea is that there are two (2) types of products that may fall under the category of XTG3.

1. Games developed in collectible SETS. This is something like Collectible Card Games that want to use the LCG licensing but don't want tournament or production schedules to be a part of the "terminology" used by a game. But theses SETS want to be developed and SOLD in a way to express that they will be "expanded upon".

2. Games developed with a "core" + "expansions". This is "TradeWorlds" and to date we have one (1) "core" product and three (3) "expansions". There are others in the pipe and we need to wait and see which ones get developed next.

For #1 ... Yes it would be possible for people to design "overly" powerful SETS. That's why I would suggest Level 2 (Partial) licensing to people who want to develop LGC-Like products... The idea is that people can SUBMIT their ideas but the selection of ideas will be handled by the Publisher and his/her "designer". So it's simply an "e-mail" you can forward your ideas to.

For #2 ... It's not a question of "overly" powerful. You are designing EXPANSIONs to a "core" product. It's usually a more creative and original person who will change the way the "core" game is played. And that could be at the right time a Level 3 (Open) Licensing... When the game has matured over the years and sales have dwindled... Then creating materials to be used to make "FREEWARE" (for lack of a better term) that could re-ignite a BRAND/Game into more "core" sales and developing a larger community.

So you might want to go to Level 2 (Partial) before considering Level 3 (Open).

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 15:03
#5
Hasenfang
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And Jay103, Yeah, that is

And Jay103,

Yeah, that is the one thing I agree with, is having an open world system, where other can create, it might cause a lot of trouble with those who may wish to cheat the system. Granted the response comment from above also gave a good idea as to how to control that matter as well. I mean, if 5E can pull it off, with all the content being put out by others on kickstarter, it seems there could be a way to control the over-powering.

Oh, also, I was just using "Kingdoms" as an example word. Take for instance a kind of Game of Thrones card game, where players make their own House. They have their own heroes, weapons, skills, lineage, buffs, etc. They literally devise their Kingdom from scratch. problem is, controlling the guidelines of how powerful your players/items/skills can be. I agree through, it would be hard to control the cards, based off of each creation and making sure they have equilibrium to the rest of the cards made.

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 15:14
#6
Hasenfang
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I suppose in a Level 3, if

I suppose in a Level 3, if they get away with sexual content, it may be wise to require them to post an NSFW brand to the expansion. But yeah, as much of a pain as it may be to peruse through everyone's content for approval, perhaps the Level 2 is a safest way to go.

I do like this idea. I was wondering if such a thing existed and it is impressive to see this in play. I would totally make a game based on this concept.

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 15:15
#7
wob
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the first game that had user

the first game that had user made content i can remember playing a game when i was a kid (i cant really remember the rules or name). it used a standard pack of cards and was a bit like war (i think). played over rounds for points.
anyway the interesting bit was that at the start of the game players start with their victory points and are trying to protect them. before the game each player writes some "powers" that go up for auction using your vp. the powers were things like x2 points for a win or kings are wild or what ever you decided.
like i say i only half remember the game, maybe someone else remembers it.

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 15:20
#8
questccg
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As far as the initiative goes...

I just wanted to ADD... That although it might only take $2,000 to draft up the EULA... I'm not in a position to invest in this at the present time. My "design" efforts currently span two (2) BRANDS and cannot finance both those projects in addition pay for legal fees for the drafting.

But the bottom line is that the XTG3 project is active... And willing to accept new games to the fold.

There are plans down the road for having a CUSTOM "Web-site" with all the games, their CURRENT level of licensing and space for materials to be downloaded and shared with the community of gamers and designers alike.

I have a vision for this project... It's just that my efforts have been split up with investment in two other projects.

So I am still STRONGLY interested in following-through with the XTG3 initiative ... but cannot at the moment due to my other financial obligations.

Just a FYI. Cheers!

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Sat, 04/27/2019 - 15:45
#9
questccg
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Submission Guidelines have changed over the years!

Hasenfang wrote:
...But yeah, as much of a pain as it may be to peruse through everyone's content for approval, perhaps the Level 2 is a safest way to go.

If you remember the older days, companies like Marvel used to have "Open Submission" policies for artists to submit their work. Well they shut down that facility a few years ago... Because they were receiving too much "Junk Mail".

But the fact of the matter is ... Just that they HAD such a facility made available to the General Public meant that they would review whatever came through the mail to see if they could find the next "Geof Isherwood" or "Larry Hama"!

Hasenfang wrote:
I do like this idea. I was wondering if such a thing existed and it is impressive to see this in play. I would totally make a game based on this concept.

We've had a excellent start so far with "TradeWorlds"... Just to get the BGG Family page, we needed two (2) "Expansions" or products using the family. But we are at three (3), two (2) more in the pipeline and EVEN MORE... further down the line. The game is VERY "adaptable".

I don't aggressively promote the XTG3 initiative... But I am aware that the concept is not "for nothing". There is a NEED for such a family of games and there is the need for "Market Differentiation" too. We hope that one day in the future, when you go to a game store... And SEE the "XTG3" logo on a box, that means that the game was DESIGNED for "expandability"... I know many games when they become successful, they try to build on prior success and come out with NEW games. But that's not what the XTG3 initiative is about.

It's a distinguishing MARK saying: "Look, I designed this game FOR expandability!"

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Sun, 04/28/2019 - 11:31
#10
Jay103
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In fairness, if I continue to

In fairness, if I continue to sell my Heroes & Treasure games, I'm considering having (free) curated content available on my website, made by members of the public. But it would be curated by me (at least to the extent that I could control that.. and I don't think I'd ever be so popular as to have people publishing their own missions somewhere).

But in the GoT example, yeah, if I'm defining stuff FOR MYSELF, of course I'm going to be OP. I have no incentive whatsoever to make my stuff balanced.

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Sun, 04/28/2019 - 21:18
#11
questccg
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Interesting aside

Jay103 wrote:
...But in the GoT example, yeah, if I'm defining stuff FOR MYSELF, of course I'm going to be OP. I have no incentive whatsoever to make my stuff balanced.

I just wanted to share an aside while reading Jay103 response.

In my WIP (Monster Keep) ... the STRENGTH of a card is "undefined". It is the COMBINATION of TWO (2) cards which determines the outcome. Cards work in TANDEM and while "constructing" your deck you need to make "smart" choices.

For example: You must have three (3) Melee (A Block) cards. These are usually weak Magic cards and "stronger" Power cards. The level is Skill is also relatively LOW.

BUT COMBINE those Melee cards by ATTACKING "stronger" cards results in HIGH "Morale" Boost or Losses. And the MATH is identical either way. So Card #0001 and Card #0007 will always do -20 Morale Points. Even if the roles were reversed and Card #0007 is attacking Card #0001 the damage dealt is -20 Morale points also...

So this poses an interesting "puzzle" as you BUILD your deck for future games. Average = BAD! Weak/Strong = GOOD!

It's interesting because the NOTION of "Strong" or "Over-powered" is always in relation to TWO (2) cards in tandem. Not a single card... And it therefore depends on your opponent's deck TOO! Mouhaha!

Therefore you must decide how weak/powerful you want to be OR you can be average and have less exciting skirmishes...

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