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Worker placement, Role selection and Action cards: Is it the same thing?

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larienna
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I had a few ideas lately to make a worker placement game. It's not my favorite genre, so I am not much familiar with it.

Still, by thinking about it, there seems to have a lot of correlation between Worker placement, role selection and action cards. From my analysis:

Action cards: Play a card from your hand and resolve the effect. Normally, the cards is discarded, therefore not reusable. Multiple copies can be included in the deck.

Worker placement: All players share the same hand of actions. Actions are reusable from turn to turn and have a limited set. Sometimes actions are exclusive to the player that used it.

Role selection: All players have access to the same hand of actions. The players do not share the actions, only 1 role er player.

I think those mechanics could be easily substituted by one another depending on the desired exclusivity, quantity and availability of the actions.

There are some exceptions to the rules, especially when it does not imply a unique effects. For example, in "Leonardo da vinci" putting workers on a lab makes the invention progress by 1 point per worker. In that case, the worker is more itself like a resource.

What are your thoughts?

Second questions, how do you define the possible action of a worker placement / role selection game?

From my analysis of puerto rico, san juan, lords of waterdeep and leonardo da vinci, the "basic actions" or roles, must contain everything necessary to interact with the game.

It's like if the game was static and immobile, and to move things around your board, you required those actions. It's a form of indirection, instead of manipulating the components in front of you directly you need those actions to do it.

I guess afterwards it's just a matter to making each of those actions attractive enough to they they all have an equal weight. Else

questccg
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Worker placement

There are several variations. Like for example: "Having a 'Tableau'..." This means that the number of workers VARY and can grow (or diminish) given some specific conditions. Let's assume that your workers are "Color-Coordinated" meaning Red is for Player #1, Blue if for Player #2, and so forth, etc.

The worker must interact with the Game Space. It's called "WORKER PLACEMENT" because it means just that: You put a "worker" somewhere and then they produce something in return.

So "Workers" do NOT have ACTIONS. They do something SPECIFIC given a POSITION in the area of play. Like "Collect +1 Wood" if on a Forest Tile. Or "Collect +1 Food" if on a River Tile (Fishing), etc.

As the term describes it... Worker PLACEMENT is a "simple" mechanic with LIMITED function given some basic PURPOSE usually in terms of "RESOURCES" or other RELATED reasons.

I don't at all see these FUNCTIONS as "Actions" there is no HAND of ACTIONS, meaning you are not drawing cards from a hand in order to perform some kind of FUNCTION...

But let's say one of those Workers in placed in an area of the Tableau in which you have "Mechs" ... That "Worker" could now have a new set of FUNCTIONS based on the Fact that his is now the driving force behind a "Mech". So functions can change based on the LOCATION of the Worker: area of play, tableau, or some kind of track, etc.

If you keep FUNCTIONS SIMPLE (like by default a Worker gathers some resources) then it is possible to make more ADVANCED purposes (like driving or controlling a Mech...) Or defining methods of collecting NEW "Resources" like when you UNLOCK the "mine", you can collect URANIUM given a maximum of 2 Workers... For example...

It can get pretty AWESOME what you CAN do with Worker Placement. But the KEY is to ensure that FUNCTIONS are BASIC: gathering only. And then build SIMPLE but more ADVANCED Functions.

***

Role Selection is usually defined per TURN. You usually select ONE (1) Role and get to perform one Action. Action: "Farming = you can re-assign up to 2 Workers in-play" or Action: "Mech = you can move a mech or attack an opposing Mech." TradeWorlds we use this to compartmentalize what a player does PER TURN.

This is the same like San Juan or Puerto Rico however those games have (I believe) a more LIMITED use since no two (2) players can have the SAME ROLE per turn... (Again I believe, if I am incorrect, please do correct this assumption).

***

Action Cards themselves could be part of a DECK. I think this is how you are defining ACTIONS. You DRAW a CARD and you may perform the ACTION it states. This is of course INTERESTING in the event that you want one-off ACTIONS which vary the game from one player to another.

Never-the-less this would be an innovative approach to handling ACTIONS. TradeWorlds uses the "Tactic" cards to control more specific ACTIONS than general FUNCTIONS or ROLE, that affect how the game is played. But you can still have ENHANCED Functions too...

Like for example: "Farming (ACTION) = You can re-assign 3 workers given this card on this turn."

They can be TIGHTLY aligned (as per my example) or they can be looser and offer more UNIQUE "Actions" like "Mech (ACTION) = Use a missile to deal +2 damage an opposing Mech." As opposed to normally dealing 1 to 3 Damage, you would deal 3 to 5 Damage...

So ACTIONS in a DECK can offer more VARIETY in terms of what they CAN do. And they can "spice-up" the game rather interestingly. Like I said, I do this in "TradeWorlds" with the "Tactic" Cards.

***

I generally AGREE with you. With the exception of "Worker Placement". I see that as FUNCTIONS given some kind of "WORK". You don't draw from a Deck of cards but more so rely on positioning to define what a WORKER may do... And usually it's "basic".

I haven't designed any "Worker Placement" games because most of my games TO DATE do NOT have a "BOARD" (central area of play delimiting the known world...) But yeah maybe that could be something COOL to design... I will add "Worker Placement" to my "bucket list" of mechanics. Not now... But sometime in the future. I guess that would also be a FIRST (1st) for me to design a BOARD too since I have refrained from doing that.

I guess having a PAWN or AVATAR doesn't really COUNT as a "Worker Placement" even thought you do MOVE around the area of play and collect Crystals (in "Crystal Heroes")... This is TOO BASIC IMHO.

Please share with us your further thoughts and concerns regarding this three (3) mechanics in Game Design... What do you think in terms of "Worker Placement", do you see these as FUNCTION or ACTIONS???

Cheers @larienna.

larienna
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Some worker placement can be

Some worker placement can be like civilization, you place a worker on a tile and it gives you X resources.

But in order games, the worker is placed on a complex action. It's like if an action set is shared by all the players. One of the problem with such mechanism is player scaling issues. Like there is too much or not enough actions depending on the number of players.

In Puerto Rico, one player chooses, the others follow the action.

Indeed, all worker placement game seems to have some sort of central board where workers are placed. I always found this fascinating, but on the other hand non flexible. I rather have cards with action on them that can be easily be replaced if there is a bug, or for variety.

***

Recently, I came up with solo game inspired by Star Trek Deep Space 9 idea, where you place workers or different colors(professions) to different areas of the station to accomplish various things, trying to fix problems.

Originally, I was thinking Battle Star Galactica events that required certain colors of workers to solve. The problem is that the event card becomes the action, and there not really other actions that can happen on the station.

Then I though of having more generic actions, like there could be, like in Puerto Rico, placed to build modules inside a free space of the station. Then this module, could be activated by placing worker on it afterwards. When special events occurs, they will add stuff to the board, like damage or problem tokens that requires fixing, instead of being themselves the target to resolve. I could use a combination of both system.

Then when alert arrives, you engage in battle mode, and the position of the worker in the station influence how they can be used to patch things up in battle.

questccg
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JT's "The Captain is Dead!"

Your Star Trek "concept" makes me think of JT's "The Captain is Dead!" where the crew need to work together to get the Starship "repaired" before too many aliens either board the Starship or it gets blown up.

He has a bunch of Workers in his game. I haven't explored much his game ... Only to know that some ppl "referred" to his game as a "Star Trek"-like Board Game.

***

I haven't seen many Worker Placement games with complex functions. And in most case as we both agreed, there is usually a central board.

I understand what you are trying to do with CARDS... But the flexibility comes at a price of "abstract" functions. Meaning that maybe you do have cards with actions (in your case) but this could lead to confusion because there are too many actions. The BOARD and TABLEAUX (Player Boards) can be used to FOCUS that "abstraction" into something more visual.

Cards for the sake of cards... Doesn't necessarily imply SIMPLER analysis and if you have too many kinds of "Actions" that could lead to Paralysis-Analysis. If you need to choose a role, then you need to draw a card (from an Action Deck) and then lastly you need to re-organize workers (and their functions)... It may be too much.

Remember "The Captain is Dead!" has a central playing board and a bunch of Decks with cards related to different aspects of the Starship.

I'd recommend looking at "The Captain is Dead!" since it very much SEEMS like the game you had in mind. But it's still not "Deep Space 9". However the premise is a bit similar.

***

If I was you... I would do something in the vein of "Pacific Rim" and Jaegers. The cool thing is that the universe setups pretty easily and the BOARD can be like in Pandemic (the World) and you need to COMBAT the Kaijus, colossal sea monsters which have emerged from an interdimensional portal on the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.

Why would you want to do that???

Because Jaegers require TWO (2) Co-Pilots of each Jaeger...! Which means a sort of TEAM PLAY in a COOPERATIVE effort. And once a Jaeger is done battle and returns from being deployed... the TEAM can end and then you can PLAY with another player in another Jaeger...!

It's a BLEND of "Pandemic", "Arkham Horror", "XCOM: The Board Game" and "King of Tokyo".

COOPERATIVE, TEAM MANAGEMENT, PORTHOLES in the OCEANS... GIANT MECHS, GIANT MONSTERS... Hehehe.

Could be for "2 to 6 Players" given that the Jaegers require 2-Players Each.

You could "borrow" the contagion mechanic from Pandemic and to make it different than "Pacific Rim", there can be portholes anywhere in the oceans of the World... (Arctic, Atlantic, Pacific and Indian). But you can divide them into Seven (7): Arctic, North Atlantic, South Atlantic, North Pacific, South Pacific, Indian and Antarctic Ocean.

Would be AWESOME TBH!!!

Possible Name: Jaeger Masters

***

And as an additional comment, the game could have MINIATURES for the JAEGERS and INVADING MONSTERS. Could make for a HUGE game with everything that comes with it...! Your players would need to JET-Around the world to go from one area of the World to another (A bit like XCOM). But instead of cities, you go to bases off the shores of the Oceans...

A Player could control "X" pilots ... known as "Jaeger Masters"! Ergo the name... Maybe the number of pilots vary as the number of players: the more the players the less pilots per player (Something like that...)

***

BTW how is your "Wizardry" Remake coming along?! You haven't posted much about it so I was wondering where you are at??? If you feel like it... Share with us some of your progress and let us know where you are at!

Cheers @larienna!

larienna
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I know the "Captain is Dead",

I know the "Captain is Dead", I did not check the rules, but it's on my steam wish list:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1126580/The_Captain_is_Dead/

Might be worth to take a look, and see what to do different.

As for wizardry, it`s progressing supper slow as I have a lot of things to deal with in my life right now.

I just finished another iteration of glymmer (the user interface), and the files are available on my website, the binaries are only linux for now. I automated the deployment process in this iteration. Still no database support.

http://lariennalibrary.com/ArtifactDepot/glymmer/

https://gitlab.com/larienna/glymmer

I do have a dilemma on my next step to take because I have different alternatives, I am not sure which path to take. Not sure if it can be posted has it is very computer technical dilemma with little game design aspect. Unless people do not mind doing technobable.

questccg
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I'm an accredited "Software Engineer"

So I may be able to help with as you put it "technobabble"... Depending on the nature of it.

Right now, most of my current experience is Web-Oriented (I'm learning Bootstrap and have a ton of experience with HTML 5.0, CSS 3.0 and JavaScript). But I used to specialized in Back-End Development mostly with Oracle DBs and various systems like JD Edwards, PeopleSoft, and custom websites (like SAQ.com for example).

If you WANT to post your "issue" feel free... I may (or may not) be able to help or even just provide advice depending on the nature of the "decision".

However you feel... Nobody is going to complain: "Why are we talking about a Video Game???" It is never-the-less a game and well sometimes you don't always have a definite answer to "challenges" which sometime require another opinion. Nobody works in a vacuum either. So feel free to ask and maybe someone (not only me) can answer you (we've got a few Software Developers on the website too...) like @JewellGames (for example). It's true that Gregg hasn't been around the forum lately... But you never know!

Sincerely.

questccg
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WAD Files???

larienna wrote:
...I just finished another iteration of glymmer (the user interface), and the files are available on my website, the binaries are only linux for now. I automated the deployment process in this iteration. Still no database support...

As far as my understanding of SQLite is that it is a FILE-BASED RDBMS...?

So all files like "Bitmaps" and so forth could be embedded into the Database, no??? I also remember WAD files from the DOOM ERA. Those also had Audio (Music and Sound Effects) and bitmaps (Sprites and Textures)... And LEVEL information too... All things relevant to your software (of course it may be different... But take a look anyhow)...

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/WAD

Check-it out... It may be OLD ... But it's cool to look at RETRO software and get new IDEAS!!!

questccg
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SQLite

Quote:
Can SQLite store audio files?

SQLite can store binary data like audio, video, images... etc. directly in the DB, it's called BLOB (Binary Large Object).

You can maybe see if you can use lower quality MP3 sound files (Like 96 KBps which is as low as possible). The MP3 player can handle the compression internally... You can use a Sound Editing Platform (eg. why I suggested finding a Musical Composer... Who knows how to EDIT sound and music).

Same for Sprites and Textures ... They can be stored into the DATABASE. Maybe you can use some kind of compression CHUNKING division of data. Meaning get all the assets per LEVEL loaded (eg. why I suggested looking at the WAD file format). This would take some time each time you LOAD a LEVEL... But would then be quicker in-memory... Again create NICE textures with an "Texture Artist" (eg. why I suggested looking for a artist... who knows how to create textures and bitmap art).

Anyhow... Just some general advice. You can ignore me. But I'd seriously THINK about make some POSITIONS on the website and see if anyone is interested.

Also I said Window 7+ for platform... But IDEALLY, I would prefer an Android Game TBH I think that's what most ppl look for nowadays. Your game is very NICHE and I know it's probably easier to code for Windows or a Windows Binary, etc.

I wish I could help you about Android Game Development... I know jack sh!t about coding mobile apps ... Would love to learn... Maybe in the future after my training with Bootstrap.

Best!

IMPORTANT!!! : In your platform you put option #1: Dox Box... I believe it should be DOS Box... Please take a look into that!

questccg
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For the TEXTURES, I would contact this dude...

http://www.davegh.com/index.php/en-us/

He has a HUGE list of Textures and you should see if he would be willing to LICENSE them to you for your Wizardry Re-make. This would avoid you needing to hire a "Texture" Artist and he has so many textures... He may want to accept if you can use them in your Video Game.

That's one dude that I know (not personally but know of...)

Feel him out. It's 2024 and who will be wanting to use his Textures if NOT YOU?!

Like there are a TON of remakes out there, right??? Probably not. Limited application nowadays... Maybe feel him out and see what he thinks. You're an Indie Video Game Designer, he's an Indie Video Game Artist... Could work. The worst he can do is say: "NO!"

Ask him before posting for a OFFER for "Texture Artist"...

Sincerely.

larienna
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I designed maps for Hexen, so

I designed maps for Hexen, so I know pretty much what is a WAD.

The android/window subject will be discussed in the other thread I will make.

The problem with DOS BOX is the memory issues with special drivers to manage XMS. I though about it once as a kind of virtual platform, but could end up more complicated with modern development techniques.

I know DaveGH, that is the textures I intend to use for Wizardry Legacy. Sorted a lot of his pictures already, but I'll have to redo some work. Still, If I make a commercial game eventually, I will need to supply my own textures. Unless he accept royalties. Thalzon also have a large bestiary of monsters I will be using for Wizardry legacy only.

Oh!, by the way, another dude managed to make a wizardry game. This is another reason it does not encourage me to continue. I would like to contact him, but I could not find his email since I could not build his game. Maybe we could share the first person dungeon. I don't know where he got his monster graphics.

https://github.com/davemoore22/sorcery

I made a list of first person dungeon crawler that I could design that would reuse the same maze engine (called Mapper), and I have like 10 more or less solid game ideas. So it is worth working on it since it can be reused.

By the way, if you want to make make Android games that also runs on PC, and you know Java/Kotlin, I recommend learning LIBGDX. I have 3 books at home that talks about it, so it's pretty well documented.


Glymmer

Right now, Glymmer is built out of glyphs. There are now multiple layers for background, letters and game icons. Making it possible to have more complex and beautiful output. For example, this glyph set:

http://lariennalibrary.com/ArtifactDepot/glymmer/glyph/GreenGold.bmp

Used in combination with this font:

http://lariennalibrary.com/ArtifactDepot/glymmer/font/wizardry10x15.bmp

Allows me to build this user interface:

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/8076057/larienna

Before I could continue Wizardry Legacy again, I need to re-implement database support into the engine. The goal is to be able to build a dialog using only a printf format and an SQL query. That makes interface development pretty fast. Eventually, that information could be placed in an XML file to load making it easier to mod, and requiring less code. The code basically only attach stuff together and launch some game rule routines once a while.

SQLite is file based, like Microsoft access. It's a single user database, making it perfect for solo video games. It will be is used to store game design data and save game data. Currently, the old wizardry legacy project does that.

Yes, any file could be stored as BLOB datatype into the database. I do not intend to do this, it's easier to use asset archives available by most Game Libraries. In Wizardry Legacy, I think I used blob data type to store the portion of the map that was explored. You could store game maps this way too with terrain and locations. Or story scenarios, help files, etc. The advantage is that you don't need to make your own file format. But if another format is already available like images, pictures and sounds, better use this instead.

I'll post another thread that explains my dilemma.

questccg
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His email is on the Splash Screen... Hehehe!

larienna wrote:
Oh!, by the way, another dude managed to make a wizardry game. This is another reason it does not encourage me to continue. I would like to contact him, but I could not find his email since I could not build his game. Maybe we could share the first person dungeon. I don't know where he got his monster graphics.

https://github.com/davemoore22/sorcery

Contact and Help

All comments and criticism and help welcome. You can find me as Typhon on the C++ Help, SFML, and DungeonCrawlers.org Discord Servers, or my email address is on the Splash Screen of the Game.

***

larienna wrote:
I'll post another thread that explains my dilemma.

No worries... Cheers.

larienna
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I know, but I cannot find

I know, but I cannot find build the software. So I cannot reach the splash screen. I could try to search the code for the @ symbol, if this is how it's written.

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