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Alternate history VS Complete fiction

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larienna
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I have multiple game ideas that are based on an historical context, either for the theme, or a game as a source of inspiration that took place in that time period. Here are a few examples:

1. China: Romance of the 3 kingdom: Completely fantasy with magic and dragon.

2. Pacific: World war 2: Alternate history where Germans won the war and japan controls the pacific. Uncharted waters style of game with trading and piracy.

3. Europe: Steam Punk: Adventure game like eldritch horror.

Now, many of the games above requires some explanations to justify those alternate history. Some of them are just a twist on something than exist.

The problem is that it restrains me to a specific geography and historical background. I also need more research to make it somewhat accurate and plausible.

So I thought, why not make it a completely fictional world, with new maps, allowing modular maps or randomly generated maps (in video games) giving much more flexibility and replay value. Game setup and background story could also be modified from a game to another.

I could optionally offer a real map of china, pacific or europe as a kind of scenario. But the other scenarios could be completely fictional.

Do you think it's actually a good idea?

So far, I don't see any disadvantages to break out from historical accuracy. Besides that people might not know its actually a pacific WW2 or an ancient China game.

FrankM
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Fictional worlds come with less baggage

You can convey the inspiration through the artistic style without tying yourself a specific history that might turn out to be problematic.

For example, there wasn't a whole lot of the Pacific that was uncharted in WW2. It still might be a tough sell having uncharted waters with submarines, steel warships, and aircraft carriers... but a random map and fog-of-war hiding the current status make perfect sense in a purely fictional world.

The players know where the islands and major landmasses are, and probably ports, just not the exact population of units at each location. In a videogame the state is simply hidden; in a board game the hex's compliment is randomly determined when visited by a player.

For the steampunk setting, there's even less reason to tie yourself to real geography. For one thing, it removes the real-world plethora of languages from the equation. And you can lay out the railroads rationally rather than the historical accidents that drive real track locations. Or maybe lean into the huge variation in density, depending on what the game needs.

X3M
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Personally

I love games that start from an accurate history. Then something different happens. And they slowly deviate in a different path.

C&C tiberium dawn is one of those examples. Where you start in a normal world. But a comet/astroid hits the Earth and changes the resource managment for certain political groups to a better. And one group then makes use of this to control them all.

questccg
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I also think both comments are valid

What I dislike about historically accurate games is that there is little left to the imagination. I mean i think that @X3M offers a very interesting alternative:

Quote:
Start with something real... but move away from it making the game unique.

Same goes for the board... Look at Scythe which is somewhere in between reality and pure fiction. Steampunk is more or less an alternate reality where things evolve differently. So if you go with that theme, naturally you'll be on your own and need to think up your own "world".

As far as the Pacific, that's a more limiting context. Like you say there are only a few islands and the units are limited also. This is the least interesting theme from those that you have listed.

Changing the outcome of history could be in between because you can imagine a different reality. This is sort of like "The man in High Castle" (Amazon Prime Video Original Series) where the Germans and Japanese win the war.

Purely fictional themes like Sci-fi are the most flexible but you need to do a lot of work to make the game. Think like StarCraft and so forth. TradeWorlds is an imaginary universe and was fun to design. I went to get a freelance writer to help flesh out the factions. That can help too... in that you proceed iteratively and work with skills in writing stories.

Out of what you proposed, I like #1 Chinese theme the best. You can invent your own tech tree and simulate the expansion of the empire.

You don't even need to worry too much about geography... You can ignore the fact that their evolution is restricted by land masses and other countries.

I really like #1. It's different. From building the Great Wall... to mysticism like the Tibetan Monks, to cultural signs, dragon, rabbit, dog, etc. And the whole creation of gunpowder...

Very rich set of options and how you can evolve ignoring actual reality.

Anyhow that's how I feel. Best of luck with these options. Cheers!

larienna
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The Raya movie could be an

The Raya movie could be an example of fictional Chinese themed movie.

Quote:
As far as the Pacific, that's a more limiting context. Like you say there are only a few islands and the units are limited also. This is the least interesting theme from those that you have listed.

My take on changing history was that the Germans made the nuke before the US, and nuked England. Negotiating a forced peace with the Japanese, but having a too big empire in the pacific the Japanese can handle, piracy is on the rise and is secretly funded by US and other countries.

Still, somebody could find loop holes or illogical stuff in my background story. I am also restrained to pacific geography which eventually could lead to dominant strategies in how to play the game.

The only benefit might be that it's easier to identify as a pacific ww2 game, but it's a pretty low argument.

If I use complete fiction, I could have multiple empires trying to influence each other while you play in between them.

X3M
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A choice: just an idea for a game.

The third Reich will be the first one to launch nukes.

You could have the player make a choice at the start of the game.

Nuke England.
Nuke Normandy at D-day.
Nuke the Sovjet Union.

If England is nuked, the game could continue with battling US and Sovjet Union.
Less troops will land on Normandy. Thus this time possible to defend or they get less reïnforcements etc.

If Normandy is nuked, the game could continue with battling England and Sovjet Union. But England would be stronger with the help of US.

If Sovjet Union is nuked. That side will be weaker.

It will be a simple case of where you want to weaken the opponents. Just enough to get another nuke. And actually survive longer as the third Reich.

Everytime a nuke hits. You could not only remove troops. But increase the radiation levels by 1. Meaning you are slowly changing the map and pull up walls.

A level of 1 will kill 1 enemy every round.
A level of 2 will kill 3 enemies every round.
etc.

Every X rounds, you get another nuke. But you need to put in resources for it.

If every month is like a round. And you set the US having their first nuke at August 1945. They could start launching it at the Third Reich centre.
Having the same radiation effect. But to make things worse. The US launches 1 nuke every month.

So, the end game will be slow at first.
This event does require invading US as well.

I just thought about it. You could have a modification to Axis & Allies for this.
A&A nuclear edition, with tracking time.

FrankM
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Something besides A&A

X3M wrote:
I just thought about it. You could have a modification to Axis & Allies for this.
A&A nuclear edition, with tracking time.

I don't think A&A tracks the right kinds of resources to do this justice, but larienna's game most certainly could.

Pick three or four essential resources, get a bit of raw material for each, develop the ability to process it, and combine the outputs to construct one nuke. The "expert labor" resource has a slightly different mechanic since the main issues with "raw materials" and "processing" are mostly about keeping out spies.

But this is all veering pretty far away from the original concepts presented, and may or may not belong in the setting larienna is using.

larienna
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The nuking was just for the

The nuking was just for the background story to explain the situation. Still, maybe you could nuke a different country to change the situation in the pacific.

Nuke UK and US can have significant impact in the pacific, nuking Europe little impact. Nuking Russia could give extra territory to Japan.

questccg
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For historical accuracy, the Germans called it...

The V-Bomb and they did manage to launch an attack on the UK targeting London but the missile missed the mark and hit somewhere in the countryside.

If they would have had the time to perfect this missile, that would have upset the balance of power because they could have done mass bombing and hit many European cities.

So the fiction of this reality isn't very fictional... It actually could have played out differently had the Germans had more time.

Sincerely.

Note: It looks like the history goes along with both the V1 and V2 bombs... and that there were massive amounts of attacks on the UK. Don't know which is accurate TBH. I guess you would have to do more historical analysis and research to figure out the facts from fiction. In any event, that's part of the effort you take on knowing history and the relevant facts.

FrankM
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Nukes as shaking up the balance of power

larienna wrote:
The nuking was just for the background story to explain the situation. Still, maybe you could nuke a different country to change the situation in the pacific.

Nuke UK and US can have significant impact in the pacific, nuking Europe little impact. Nuking Russia could give extra territory to Japan.

If I understood the setting correctly, the players are pirates and not (officially) aligned with any state.

Each state can have a progress track toward developing then manufacturing nukes (Germany is not helping anyone), with a simple flowchart of who'd they drop it on, obliterating their largest port city and any units there.

Left to their own devices, the states' progress is random leading to a random shake-up of the states' relative power at some point mid-game.

The pirates can have hush-hush ties with a state, maybe primarily to move more expensive booty, but this allows the pirates to help the state along its nuke track should they choose. There's always the possibility that the state accomplishes the step on their own, depriving the pirates of the chance to sell their aid (though they could sell it to the other state they're secretly helping).

If you want the pirates to have a nuke track of their own, it should have pre-development steps of establishing on land base to even begin the process. Such a land base always has a chance of being discovered and attacked by a hostile state. Or pirates can be limited to profiting off helping the major states.

I still think this works better in a fictional setting so the map and resource allocation can be random, but should work in a historical setting too. In the real world, there are uranium deposits near the Pacific in Australia, Canada, China, Russia, and the United States. Smuggling from further afield is also possible, though in this setting Germany will have seized all reserves in Europe.

Other components include

- Heavy water which can be filtered directly from seawater with the right equipment
- Electronic computers (these are the huge ENIAC-class monsters that are hard to move)
- Precision machinery to allow making the centrifuges, accelerators, etc.
- Precision machinists to do the making
- Scientists to figure out exactly what needs to be made
- Raw materials like steel, copper/silver, etc.
- Defensible and/or remote production site
- Test site (which can be a tiny island no one's using)

Or go with one of your other ideas :)

questccg
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If the idea is that ATM you only want to explore one option...

I would go with China and put them in a bubble. What I mean is that the territory they can explore goes well inland and Tibet and part of India can also be included in the physical board...

You can maybe do raving marauders like in a Civ type game that have villages but are not a unified nation to oppose the players trying to expand the Chinese continent.

TBH the Pacific has hardly any islands and the theme sounds to blah to me. It's like how all the Bond modern movies were all about the Internet... Boring. Admittedly Spectre was better... But my proposal is to go back in time and focus on stories that might be in the 80s or 70s.

Europe steampunk also has potential if say WW2 had NOT occurred and the Germans would become technical bastion for technological development... Not sure what the goal would be, however that theme has potential too.

Nukes just don't do it for me.

Also with the Chinese theme... you can explore CULTURE more and it can be development versus wars. A little bit like Scythe where expansion takes precedence and skirmishes for territory occur towards the end of the game.

Another possibility TBH.

Cheers @larienna, let us know what you choose to decide as your next project.

questccg
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For the steampunk theme...

What if the goal was to build the "Flying Fortress" ... which is the first city in the air. That could be a cool and non combative type of game play!

So it's all about economic and technological development all for the purpose to be the first player to build this "World Wonder" (like the pyramids or Great library, etc.)

That could be cool! Best.

larienna
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I had a cloud city wonder

I had a cloud city wonder idea in my master of magic board game. It was one of the victory condition.

Frank, what you exposed is another twist on the theme. But no, nukes were not going to be part of the game, just an explanation to have a pacific in chaos. I need an area full of islands where piracy with ww2 equipment is possible.

In that case, the non-historical version would remove the need for such justification and could include multiple empires the synergy could be better. A real pacific ww2 settings would only be an optional scenario in this case.

So I could have the flexibility to include a historical scenario if required. Or let the players do it.

FrankM
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An interesting option

larienna wrote:
In that case, the non-historical version would remove the need for such justification and could include multiple empires the synergy could be better. A real pacific ww2 settings would only be an optional scenario in this case.

So I could have the flexibility to include a historical scenario if required. Or let the players do it.

If the game is setup so that the area map is known from the beginning (just with fog-of-war about units), alt-historical Japan/Australia/Chile/Indonesia/Mexico/Russia/US/etc can be a non-random map layout.

While WW2 submarines were an important part of the naval mix of forces, remember that they were not the stealthy vessels of today. There's no need to come up with complex hidden-movement rules, though you may want to say only certain units can damage them (e.g., destroyers) and they can only damage certain units (not aircraft).

larienna
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Quote: While WW2 submarines

Quote:

While WW2 submarines were an important part of the naval mix of forces, remember that they were not the stealthy vessels of today

Could you elaborate on that?
That could fix a lot of issues I had with a ww2 board game.
In fact, I would have thought that we have more sophisticated submarine detection today.

I am trying to find reasons to keep the historical version. One things that came up to my mind is experimentation. What if I took that kind of ship or plane and did this thing with it.

In this case, I think it works if the content is relatively accurate to history. But I am not sure I really want to do all the historical research besides just to get more inspiration. More historical research just increase the development time for not much.

Still, some people with little creativity seem only to like realistic stuff (Might create a another thread about it). They might not like complete fiction games. But again, they might not be in my target audience.

So complete fiction seems easier/faster to design, and offer more from a game play perspective.

I am even trying to invent new sports instead of trying to understand the tons of stats and analysis behind baseball, soccer or other sports. You almost need to be a fan to understand those things.

I even tried to see if I could design new casino games that would offer strategic decisions. Therefore putting the odds in the favor of the player if he is willing to make the strategic decision. Not necessarily easy in games involving a lot of randomness.

FrankM
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Elaborating... :)

larienna wrote:
Could you elaborate on that? That could fix a lot of issues I had with a ww2 board game. In fact, I would have thought that we have more sophisticated submarine detection today.

The techniques are more sophisticated today, but so are the submarine designs.

A WW2 submarine was a small ship that could slip underwater for limited periods of time.

They were raiding vessels that wreaked havoc on supply ships, but didn't fare nearly as well when up against warships with depth charges. In that era, the Japanese were probably the least adept at using and defending against subs.

A modern submarine is a stealthy thing that can loiter for months on the ocean floor or move around virtually invisible to available sensors.

There are a number of episodes where modern submarines - mutually invisible to one another - have collided in deep water. You'd think the ocean is so big that it'd be unlikely, but at the sea floor there are only so many "valleys" for the subs to move through.

The upshot is that WW2-era subs can be normal units that are visible on the map, though they may be capable of a tactical "sneak attack" move.

questccg
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Also if you choose this theme WW2 alternative reality...

You'll probably note that the Germans had the best submarines at that time and that one of the key elements in the war was that cryptography was key in winning the war.

I can remember the movie "Midway" (2019) in which cryptography played a huge part in winning the war. It starred Woody Harrelson from Cheers...

It was a great movie to watch. You should watch it before you design your game. Why? Because it's similar content. Of course it's a movie, so take everything with a grain of salt.

Cracking coded messages between the factions was how this war was won: via misinformation and misleading the opponents.

Anyhow Midway is a good movie to watch if you have not seen it yet.

Best!

larienna
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As a pacific war fan, Of

As a pacific war fan, Of course I have seen Midway. It was very interesting even from an historical perspective. You see some details of everyday life that you do not always have the chance to see.

For example, I did not know carrier decks where made of wood.

questccg
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Here is a Link/URL to an interesting set of videos about Midway

What is cool about them is that they explain the battle from two perspectives both US and Japanese sides.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Bd8_vO5zrjo

You'll love these videos if you have not seen them yet. The details and errors and all the LUCK of timing and pilot error that lead to the US winning are INCREDIBLE...

I won't explain all of them here... You can watch the 3 videos and learn just how LUCKY the Americans were. Again all about TIMING... You'll love it for sure.

Cheers @Eric...

questccg
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In WW2, not at the present time

larienna wrote:
For example, I did not know carrier decks where made of wood.

That was the case in WW2 because it made the vessels lighter... but this is no longer the case in modern day. Now they are made of steel.

BTW let me know what you think about those Midway videos. It's so fascinating to watch and learn some of the timing when it came to attacking the Japanese fleet of carriers.

Cheers.

larienna
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Tora, Tora, Tora! Is another,

Tora, Tora, Tora!

Is another, older, movie that shows both sides equally. It's the attack on pearl harbor. It's also another 3 hour movie.

FrankM
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Why is it a 3-hour movie?

larienna wrote:
It's also another 3 hour movie.

But only because that one guy types soooooo sloooooow.

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