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Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

13 replies [Last post]
Tue, 01/04/2005 - 13:54
trnardo
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Joined: 12/31/1969

In the course of preparing for a Winds of Plunder demo at AOU-Con (in Germany), the person who will be demostrating the game asked if we had considered using a plastic arrow mounted on a tile a la Pirate's Cove. Initially we hadn't due to cost constraints, electing instead to go with four direction tiles to choose the wind direction each turn.

However, we've decided to revisit this decision.

My question: has anyone put a sustained amount of use onto compass tiles similar to those in Pirate's Cove? If so, how well do they hold up to repeated arrow setting? Do they stay together well, or does the arrow eventually work its way loose and fall out?

I like the idea of the single compass with a mounted arrow, but I don't have a good feel for whether these pieces hold up well. It seemed a good idea to check in with others here on how well a piece like this holds up before I lobby for it.

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Tue, 01/04/2005 - 14:29
#1
Anonymous
question

Are you looking for a spinner? Ie. you'll flick the arrow and it'll freely spin? or are you looking for what pirate's cove has, which is more of an indicator? (cuz you can move the arrow on it, but it doesn't really spin around loosly)

If it's a spinner you are after I can say from a couple of kids games of my youth that they can either work really well for a long time, OR fail to spin properly after only a little use depending on the materials and construction.

For example the spinner in The Game of Life still spins great in a copy from the early 80's (with a bit of vaseline to keep it greased, but it's all plastic and would be expensive I'd assume to produce), but the spinner from a He-Man game from the mid-80s which was a piece of tagboard and then two plastic pieces you snapped into each other doesn't spin so well anymore.

So I guess it depends on how much you are willing to spend on the production of the spinner itself.

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Tue, 01/04/2005 - 14:49
#2
phpbbadmin
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Joined: 04/23/2013
Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

Hmmm. Couldn't you just use two cardboard circles? I.E. A large one with the players choice and a smaller one with the actual arrow? Then you could either use a brass rivot or a winged brass fastener (probably easier for the prototype) to allow the two circles to spin against each other. It seems like as long as the rivot has enough clearence (this would be no problem with the brass fastener) and the bottom 'choices' disc was glossy enough, the arrow could rotate relatively well indefinitely. I used the brass fastener method with a clock component where the hand spun indicating the time of day. I've since scrapped the game but the component worked relatively well.

Just a thought.
-Darke

BTW, brass winged fasteners are available at office supply or possibly teacher supply stores.

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Tue, 01/04/2005 - 16:51
#3
trnardo
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

Quote:
Are you looking for a spinner? Ie. you'll flick the arrow and it'll freely spin? or are you looking for what pirate's cove has, which is more of an indicator? (cuz you can move the arrow on it, but it doesn't really spin around loosly)

We're looking for an indicator, not a spinner. The arrow has to sit tightly enough to hold in position when the player turns their disk upside down (to hide the selection), but not so tightly as to make playing the game painful. :-)

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Tue, 01/04/2005 - 17:38
#4
GeminiWeb
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Joined: 07/31/2008
Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

As an indicator, couldn't you just place a counter on the appropriate compass point (which is drawn on the mapboard)?

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Tue, 01/04/2005 - 18:13
#5
Brykovian
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Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

trnardo wrote:
The arrow has to sit tightly enough to hold in position when the player turns their disk upside down (to hide the selection), but not so tightly as to make playing the game painful. :-)

What about magnetic sheeting? (Google Search)

-Bryk

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Tue, 01/04/2005 - 18:40
#6
trnardo
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

Quote:
As an indicator, couldn't you just place a counter on the appropriate compass point (which is drawn on the mapboard)?

Not really - not for this purpose.

Under the current setup, each player receives four separate chits representing the cardinal directions (N,S,E,W) and secretly selects one. They then reveal their choices simultaneously, and "vote" on them using Wind Cubes to set the wind direction for the upcoming round.

Removing the secret selection and having players put a chit on the game board's compass turns an event that people do in parallel into one that people do serially. In practice, this change slows the game - players end up not thinking about the direction they want the wind to blow until they see how other people want it to go. We'd prefer not to make this part of the game round longer, so marking the game board in this manner is out.

The proposed change is to give everyone a single compass tile with a mounted arrow. The player would choose a direction on the tile with the arrow and place this tile upside down (or otherwise keep it concealed), then simultaneously reveal their choice.

There is no question that a single compass with an movable arrow is nicer looking than four separate tiles. The question is whether the replacement piece works over the long term in game play. Is the piece durable? Is it perceived as too fiddly? Or does it work better than having four separate tiles?

So... has anyone put a Pirates' Cove (or equivalent) compass through enough game play to tell how this holds up?

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Tue, 01/04/2005 - 20:12
#7
jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

Jiminy Christmas, is Winds of Plunder still in development? Man, this game is going to be spectacular by the end for the amount of time that's been invested in it.

Alas, I don't have the answer to your question. I suspect it would be much easier to get an answer over at the spielfrieks group, or maybe the best place would be in the Days of Wonder forums. You might also look at El Grande as an example of a game with a spinner for an indicator, although that's only used 3 times during the game as opposed to once per turn. Maharajah also has a double-spinner, if I'm not mistaken, and that, I believe, is used on a more recurring basis during the game. So you might check out those games as well.

Good luck!

-Jeff

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Tue, 01/04/2005 - 20:43
#8
trnardo
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

Quote:
Man, this game is going to be spectacular by the end for the amount of time that's been invested in it.

Hey, I've gotta do something while I'm waiting for the P500 total to hit its magic mark. :-)

Seriously, the materials issue is the first new one to crop up in a while, mainly due to an unexpected shift in the production economics. Back when it looked like GMT couldn't get the cost down, there wasn't much chance of using anything other than simple die cut tiles for the compasses. Now, however, GMT seems to have developed some new contacts - the game's P500 cost dropped from $49 to $31 - and we have the luxury of re-examining some of our earlier decisions.

Thanks for the other leads. I'll do some further checking.

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Tue, 01/04/2005 - 22:52
#9
phpbbadmin
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Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

trnardo wrote:
Quote:
Man, this game is going to be spectacular by the end for the amount of time that's been invested in it.

Hey, I've gotta do something while I'm waiting for the P500 total to hit its magic mark. :-)

Seriously, the materials issue is the first new one to crop up in a while, mainly due to an unexpected shift in the production economics. Back when it looked like GMT couldn't get the cost down, there wasn't much chance of using anything other than simple die cut tiles for the compasses. Now, however, GMT seems to have developed some new contacts - the game's P500 cost dropped from $49 to $31 - and we have the luxury of re-examining some of our earlier decisions.

Thanks for the other leads. I'll do some further checking.

Trnado,

Well, my gaming group has had Pirate's Cove for about 14 months now, and It's probably gotten at least 15 plays in that time. The indicators look almost new. In reality, they (the indicators) get very little wear in the grand scheme of things. Considering there are only 12 turns a game of Pirate's Cove, that averages about 6 complete revolutions per game (considering you will never move the pointer more than 180 degrees in any direction to get to it's new intended orientation). If Winds of Plunder has a similar number of turns per game, I would think they will hold out pretty well, at least reasonably so, assuming a similar manufacturing process. Also I comb Board Game Geek quite often, and I've not heard any bad reports about the indicators giving out. You might want to post a thread on the spielfreaks yahoo group to see if anyone has had any negative experience with the compasses.

Question: How close are you to reaching the 500 preorders necessary to get Winds published? Have you thought about posting an 'ad' on Spielfreaks or BGG to up your # of preorders? (Pardons please if you already have done that).

-Michael

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Wed, 01/05/2005 - 06:58
#10
trnardo
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

Michael, thanks for the feedback on the Pirates Cove compasses. That's exactly the type of info I was looking for!

Preorders on Winds of Plunder stand at 376, with nearly a third of those placed within the past 3 months - just after GMT was finally able to reduce the production cost.

I've mentioned demos for the game on spielfrieks in the past, and announced the price drop there, but haven't actually put a formal "FS" ad up that group or on spielfrieks-marketplace. I only recently became aware of spiefrieks-marketplace and will most likely place an ad there soon.

GMT did give the green light for Alan & I to run an ad on BGG. Unfortunately, they did so at the same time they mailed out their Winter Flyer, so I have no clue as to what impact the BGG ad had. :-)

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Wed, 01/05/2005 - 10:18
#11
phpbbadmin
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Joined: 04/23/2013
Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

trnardo wrote:
Michael, thanks for the feedback on the Pirates Cove compasses. That's exactly the type of info I was looking for!

Preorders on Winds of Plunder stand at 376, with nearly a third of those placed within the past 3 months - just after GMT was finally able to reduce the production cost.

I've mentioned demos for the game on spielfrieks in the past, and announced the price drop there, but haven't actually put a formal "FS" ad up that group or on spielfrieks-marketplace. I only recently became aware of spiefrieks-marketplace and will most likely place an ad there soon.

GMT did give the green light for Alan & I to run an ad on BGG. Unfortunately, they did so at the same time they mailed out their Winter Flyer, so I have no clue as to what impact the BGG ad had. :-)

Trnado,

Have you thought maybe to expand your scope and solicit preorders from pirate and nautical museums? I think Winds of Plunder would be a cool thing to find in a gift shop. I did a precursory search and found at least three pirate museums. Nautical museums should be even more prevalent. At any rate, good luck with your game, we are all cheering for you!

-Darke

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Wed, 01/05/2005 - 10:36
#12
zaiga
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Rotating arrows mounted on game tiles

I have no experience with the compasses in Pirate's Cove, but I do have some experience with the selectors that come with El Grande and Maharaja.

The ones that come with El Grande have a plastic arrow and hold up really well. One of those is a bit "loose", you have to click that one back together every once in a while or be careful when you lay it down or pick it up, otherwise the arrow could suddenly point to an unexpected province! It's really a minor inconvenience though.

The selectors that come with Maharaja have two arrows made of thick cardboard. These are used a lot during the game and the arrows start to show a bit of wear. It's not really a big problem because the cardboard is so thick, I expect them to last for another while. The selectors in Maharaja have much less tendency to slide than those that come with El Grande, possibly because the arrow are made of cardboard instead of plastic.

I don't perceive these selectors to be fiddly at all. On the contrary, they are easy to use and add to the "cool" factor of a game.

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Wed, 01/05/2005 - 14:17
#13
Anonymous
use the indicator

the Pirate's Cove one will last a while. And even if it falls apart in 5 years one can always patch it up on their own and not feel like they got ripped off.

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