Downloadable build-yourself board games

Sun, 04/03/2005 - 11:29

#1

Hamumu

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Joined: 12/31/1969

Downloadable build-yourself board games

My opinion is that that sounds really expensive for what you get! Maybe $5 is more the range for something I'm going to have to spend all my own money on the bits for, and cut properly. I'm not sure it sounds like much of a successful strategy, to me. There are a fair number of games (though I can't think of any offhand) that are self-published, and to attract you to the game, they show you the entire ruleset and maybe sometimes even all the components that you could print and try yourself. All to try to get you to buy the real deal. I think with board games, getting that real deal is very appealing.

And after all, Cheap Ass Games, which are sort of like your idea, only you just have to supply bits, and not boards, cards, or the rules, are only $5-10!

Sun, 04/03/2005 - 12:15

#2

VeritasGames

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Joined: 08/01/2008

RPG Now

RPG Now already carries some of these types of games. I don't think most of them have sales greater than 50-100, but that's just a wild guess.

Definitely a place to sell your product, though, since they specialize in game sales of PDF products.

Their main page has links to their Card Game and Board Game categories. I doubt that games costing more than $5.00 sell much unless the games look awesome.

Mon, 04/04/2005 - 09:40

#3

seo

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Joined: 07/21/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

Quote:

Ecological Advantage
- No waste of material for production
- No transportation required, so no fuel wasting.

Errr... Actually, by making each person produce his/her own copy, you just increase the waste and energy required. It's just that its distributed, but I don't think this is a good idea, ecology-wise.

Plus a $ 15 cost just for the files seems extremely high. Maybe I'm worng, but I think you'll have a hard time trying to sell games this way. For most people it would be almost like buying the score and the lyrics in a file, instead of a music CD. I know I'm stressing the point a bit, but I hope you understand what I really mean: too much work, too expensive in the end, and you only get a homemade game. Remember that most people will try to cut cardboard with scissors, etc.,

This might work for some easy to produce games, but still, a lot of people will rather pay more and get the game in a box than get it even for free but in a file they have to print, mount, cut, etc.

Mon, 04/04/2005 - 09:52

#4

Anonymous

Downloadable build-yourself board games

I like that you have a lot of enthusiasm for selling board games!

Your approach is one that people have tried to use to sell their own games in a way that saves them from having to put a lot of money up front for printing and distribution. I can't speak to the success of any of them, but the lack of positive feedback from them would indicate that the business model is flawed or unworkable.

My initial reaction is that the market of people that would be willing to actually print and assemble their own game is pretty small. You would attract a handful of die hard handicraft enthusiasts, but you would miss a large majority of the mainstream population.

Granted, you may attract a few gamers, but I for one agree with the previous comment that I would rather have the real thing. Especially at the price point you mention.

Keep in mind that this depends on the games you choose. If you get the rights (the all important first step) to some very good but out-of-print games, you might have more interest in your service. However, the recent spate of reprintings of popular games in this year alone would indicate that the larger companies have already realized the appeal of these games and are working to provide "the real thing" to fill the demand.

Overall your enthusiasm seems promising, do you have any other projects (your own game designs, an interest in traditional game production business models, etc.)?

Mon, 04/04/2005 - 10:39

#5

Zzzzz

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Joined: 06/20/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

For what its worth,

I have been part of a 4 person startup for a while now, and we have considered many methods to get game products into the market. While we have never tried a build-it-yourself, my experience leads me to believe that many consumers like to have something tangable when the spend their hard earned money on a game. People like to hold the product, rip off the shrink-wrap and start playing the game. I can also tell you that it has been hard to sell real product at conventions. The game market is not easy, you have all the eye-candy of the big players and it just drowns the small shops.

Also keep in mind your audience, depending on who your target audience might be, you also have the problem of some people not knowing how to use a computer to print this, print that, make a usable game prototype. Once again you are limiting yourself and your sales.

One thing I have seen attempted, are print-it-yourself RPGs. Some companies seem to be trying this route, but from what I know sales are still slow. I guess people still want to drag around 100lbs of hardcover books. Oh, yeah not having a laptop/pda seems to hinder this area also, not easy to look up a rule if you dont have something to view it on at the kitchen table.

I am not sure what to tell you, I know that it cost a ton of money to get a professional print of a game done. But think about it, if you are not willing to risk money on one of your game ideas, why would a consumer want to risk spending money on your game? This is what consumers will think, when they consider buying your game.

Please dont think this is a knock against you, I think about this everyday when I work on the half a dozen games my company is currently considering for GenCON this year. I think to myself, am I willing to spend thousands of dollars to make this game a reality? Its not easy, but at some point I decide yes or no on each game.

Mon, 04/04/2005 - 11:02

#6

Dralius

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Joined: 07/26/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

Larienna

I agree with the general assessment of the benefits and drawbacks of print and play games that you have listed. The price point and volumes you mentioned are above what this market has shown to support so far.

I am planning to release a P&P game although i am months behind my original schedule due loosing my graphics designer, the release date will be pushed into 2006.

I did a little research before I embarked on this project. What I found out was that average titles will sell around 16 a year for card games and 28 a year for board games. The best sellers did 51 card games and 64 for board games. Games rarely sell for over 10$ with $5 being the current benchmark. These are 2004 numbers and it seems the market is expanding so it is not unrealistic to hope for sales approaching 50+.

With all this in mind if a game has the potential to sell large volumes it may be worth producing in the traditional manner, otherwise this is a good way to produce games that will appeal to a small market of players with limited funds.

Mon, 04/04/2005 - 11:08

#7

phpbbadmin

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Joined: 04/23/2013

Downloadable build-yourself board games

This idea was also discussed briefly in this thread:

http://www.bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1074

Good luck.
-Darke

Mon, 04/04/2005 - 16:28

#8

Anonymous

Downloadable build-yourself board games

Believe it or not, someone on the geek has posted a string of 6 geeklists of print and play games. That's a whole lot more than I thought there has been, but then I've never looked for them. Some very interesting games out there!

Note that the games in the list are free games...

Zzzzz wrote:

...you also have the problem of some people not knowing how to use a computer to print this, print that, make a usable game prototype.

This brings up a good point that I remember talking with you about a while ago (or at least I think I remember). Do you want to sell games or be a help desk for people with problems printing your game?

Mon, 04/04/2005 - 21:44

#9

larienna

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Joined: 07/28/2008

Reply to your Replies

Hello

I thank you all for the information. I also checked the other thread of "Dungeon Crawl". I'll try to chat with this guy to see how well it works. I might even buy his game because I want to replay an "Hero Quest" like game. Still Just a few other thing I want to add, complete or critic:

1- Most of you think that 10$ to 15$ is expensive.

In canada, an average non-collectible card game, like "Hacker", "Muchkin" or "Emmerlaus" (A local game)
cost around 30$ to 40$.

A random average board game, which is not necessarily a good game, cost a minimum of 60$. "Risk lord of the ring" and "Diplomacy" cost at least 70$ and the New edition of "Axis and Allies" cost 80$. Most of these games are far from being great and I could probably do better while sleeping ( which sometime I do ( yes I do dream about games) ).

The last time I wanted to buy a game, I was totally discouraged by the price. I would not pay 60$ for a game when I know that I will have to change the rule ( I always change the rules ).

I am offering a game which is at least 1 third of the original price with a game demonstration that I could place on the web. I don't think the price is too high. Yes some people don't want to build the game and they won't buy it. But people who don't mind building the game could want to buy it at this price.

2- On my point of view, producing a game for retail stores seems impossible for independent designers even if they do have the money.

The market is all ruled by huge companies, if there was only small companies out there, there might have been a market for us. It is the same problem in the video game industry. This is one of the reason why I cannot sell video game in a retail store or even on the net since I can't make competition to the huge companies.

The only solution would be to wait for some sort of economic crash to make everybody restart even and possibly have a chance to get my share of the market. In Quebec, the bankrupcy rate of new companies, who are asking for govermental subsidies, is over 80%.

Since I don't have a really good "entrepreneurship" spirit, I am doomed to fail, even if the game is good.

3- Old Scratch said that he could distribute the files on CD-rom. I also tought about it. It has the advantage of being displayed in a retail store and prevent the user from downloading the file ( useful for slow modem connection user like me ).

There is also the build-my-self solution. I build the game and send it by mail. It will raise the price of the game and it will take me a lot of time to make it unless I have some speciallised equipment to print the game.

Maybe with technological advancement, it could be possible to have sophisticated professionnal printing machines, and maybe modeling machines, at low cost. Allowing us to produce the games ourself in our basement. Except for the machines, we don't have to pay anybody else than ourselves to build the game.

Thank you all. I also asked the question on another forum and the comments where almost the same. Maybe the only problem it that the people has not yet accepted the fact that they must build the game since they can already buy a game in a store. But if they could not buy a game in a store, they would probably be interested in downloading the game.

Anyways, it seems that there is not way to make a living with home made games (~_~). Too bad, I'll print them for myself and play them with my friends (*_*).

Sayonara (^_^)
Eric Pietrocupo :cry: it

Mon, 04/04/2005 - 23:04

#10

VeritasGames

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Joined: 08/01/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

The cost of putting together (at Kinko's, etc.) a nice copy of a game with a color board and cards on thick double-sided card stock could run up to $60.00, and it wouldn't be as nice as a typical Hasbro mass-market game.

Unless the game is specifically designed to be produced on white cardstock with black ink the game is really likely not going to be played if the gamers have to print more than a handful of pages.

Mon, 04/04/2005 - 23:39

#11

Brykovian

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Joined: 07/21/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

One of our regulars -- Prophx -- has a website where he sells his games. Players can either pay him to build a set and mail it to them, or they can download a PDF and build it themselves for free.

http://www.geocities.com/crosstowngames/

Might want to find out how he's doing with it.

-Bryk

Tue, 04/05/2005 - 08:14

#12

Dralius

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Joined: 07/26/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

Quote:

In canada, an average non-collectible card game, like "Hacker", "Muchkin" or "Emmerlaus" (A local game) cost around 30$ to 40$.

Quote:

A random average board game, which is not necessarily a good game, cost a minimum of 60$. "Risk lord of the ring" and "Diplomacy" cost at least 70$ and the New edition of "Axis and Allies" cost 80$.

Even considering exchange rates the prices you list seem quite high. Have you considered mail order?

Speaking of exchange rates, which bring your $10-$15 Canadian much more in line with what printable games are going for.

Tue, 04/05/2005 - 10:54

#13

Anonymous

Downloadable build-yourself board games

Larienna wrote:

The market is all ruled by huge companies...

I would have to disagree with you there, depending on the market you're looking to get into. Mass market games in big chain stores, yes, the big monsters rule those arenas.

In more specialized game and hobby shops (even the larger stores), the giants of the smaller outfits have a better representation and ability to get their products out. Granted, the largest seller in most hobby shops would be Wizards of the Coast (Hasbro), but only in CCG and RPG sales. There are a far greater proportion of board and non-CCG card games from other companies.

One of the publishers with the largest representation, Rio Grande Games, is actually a very small operation (only 2 employees). Fantasy Flight and Days of Wonder are also companies that started smaller and are growing their business at a rapid pace.

The best part is that you can get into the game stores with your product, you just have to start small and manage your company well. If that's not something that you're interested in, you could still go the more traditional route and submit your games to a publisher to produce. Many of the larger companies are very willing to accept submissions from independent game designers like us.

Tue, 04/05/2005 - 11:15

#14

Johan

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Joined: 10/05/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

Hello

I think that you missing the point here.
First: If I buy a game randomly (never played the game before) then I want to be able to set up the game the same evening and at least read the rules and see how it works. New games have a special look and feel (before you trash them by separating the cards and miniatures). You can't replace that.
Second: There are a lot of free games out there. Why should I pay for the one you present?

Still, selling games over internet for build your self is possible, but with another approach:

Old classic games: Classical games that will not be reprinted and there were some years ago the last one was printed. I would gladly pay between 5$-30$ (depending on the game) for download versions of games like Kremlin, Talisman, Republic of Rome, Advanced civilization and many more… (as long there are of good (high resolution and printable) quality ).

Pre-releases: I would think that there can be a smaller market in selling game compliments to popular games. A game like Runebound could probably sell some copies of new modules 2-4 month before they are released.
You should also be able to do this as a part of the sell strategy. (Games like Magic would not benefit from this).

As a part of something else: The game is a part of a web paper of some other thing. You just use the game to add some extra value.

As a subscription: You buy a game and automatically you get access to upgrades (not updates, those should always be free), articles and some new games for a time. After 6 month you have to pay for the service (or buy a new game).

As a less expensive version of the game: A try it version of the game and the game also exist as a normal game. In this case I would give away the game for free (If the players like the game, they will get a copy of the real thing).

To be able to sell a do it your self game over internet, you also have to sell quality games via the ordinary channels. The customer need to now that you know what you are doing and like your work.

// Johan

Tue, 04/05/2005 - 11:46

#15

larienna

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Joined: 07/28/2008

Another reply and a topic I forgot to clarify

Quote:

The cost of putting together (at Kinko's, etc.) a nice copy of a game with a color board and cards on thick double-sided card stock could run up to $60.00, and it wouldn't be as nice as a typical Hasbro mass-market game.

I am not sure about that. I bought a pack of 250 8"x11" card board sheet' for only 12$. A Color Ink cartridge, for a not-too-old printer, cost around 20$. With this material, you going to be able to print more than 1 copy of the game. ( Yes it depend of the game ). But for example, a non-collectibe card game of 100 card will require 12 sheets of card board and 24 print if they are double sided. If I decide to color print at my university, it cost 1$ per copy. So a 1 sided printing will cost 12$.

For a 15$ game, I expect it to require at most from 10$ to 12$ of material. So that the final price would be around half the commercial price. The place where you really save is on storing, transportation and no need to pay workers to build the game.

Quote:

Even considering exchange rates the prices you list seem quite high. Have you considered mail order?

These prices are not online sale price. They are the prices of the games that I would need to pay if I want to get in retail stores in montreal. I love games, but when I saw the prices, I ended up not buying anything. I can understand that some games like "Warhammer" Can be expensive du to the amount of metal miniatures. But some other games does not justify their high price.

My friend show me a game called "Tenchu", there is almost not artwork (the board is black with a few lines and start), there are some card and card board token without intelligible art (random textures) and the box of the game is balc with a huge kanji and the title "Tenchu" on it. In other words, I could have done the art work my self even if I have no talent. The game cost around 80$ CAD. The games look interesting and I would had probably bought it, if it was around 40$, but paying 80$ for this is out of question.

Quote:

Errr... Actually, by making each person produce his/her own copy, you just increase the waste and energy required. It's just that its distributed, but I don't think this is a good idea, ecology-wise.

Ok, I have to explain more this one. I am currently working for a book warehouse, ok it is not games, but I think the management of books is almost the same than in game warehouse.

The first kind of polution generated by these warehouse is the amount of card box, duck tape, and office paper print required to manage the books.
The games must be received, stored, shipped, etc. All the storage operation are not needed if the game is sold online.

Second, there is the transportation. The printer must send it'a material to the warehouse, then it is shipped to the retail store and the retail store has the right to ship the book back which can be shipped again. You see, there is an enormous amount of movement that will never occur in a online transaction.

Third, since the customers are really picky, if one of the book get an scratch or damaged during the manipulation process it must be destroyed. If cannot be given freely to public school or librairies due to complex legal and economic rules. In an online transaction, there is 0 damaged game, and since the quality is already lower, well the player is less picky if a game piece is not perfect.

Yes, plastic and card board can be recycled, but recycling itself generalte a lot of polution since they require some chemical to destroy the material. In fact, I think recycling generate more populution in the air than building it in the first place. The only advatage is that you reduce the amount of garbage.

Yes, if each person make their own copies, it will use almost the same amount of card board. But first the user does not need to print everything, so it can save some paper lets say for the instructions. Second, There won't be overstock since the number of copies sold equal the number of copies printed. Third, since the game is built by hand, it save energy on machinery to build the game.

Finally, there is another idea that came up to me. It would be to sell licenses, to some people who would be interested in printing the game and distributing the game in their local area or their game store. For example, a retail store want to sell the game, it buy a license which might cost less than the downloadable version, since they are buying more than 1 copy ( let say from 7$ to 12$ ), and he is alloweds to home print the game and resell it at an higher price that wil still be lower than the real comercial price. It gives the advantage to be sold in a retail store and to be distributed world wide.

Thank you very much
This discussion is really interesting.
I will also check "Crosstown Game"

Sayonara (^_^)

Larienna

Tue, 04/05/2005 - 12:09

#16

Zzzzz

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Joined: 06/20/2008

Re: Another reply and a topic I forgot to clarify

Larienna wrote:

Finally, there is another idea that came up to me. It would be to sell licenses, to some people who would be interested in printing the game and distributing the game in their local area or their game store. For example, a retail store want to sell the game, it buy a license which might cost less than the downloadable version, since they are buying more than 1 copy ( let say from 7$ to 12$ ), and he is alloweds to home print the game and resell it at an higher price that wil still be lower than the real comercial price. It gives the advantage to be sold in a retail store and to be distributed world wide.

Wow, if you can actually find retailers that are willing to spend the time to self print a game, so they can put it on the shelves to sell, I would be amazed. And please let me know who the retailer is, I would be proud to know of such a retailer. Just getting a real physical game onto the shelves of a retailer is already a near impossible job, which is why there are distributors who can help in this area.

I really hope you can make everything work for you in the long run, but it might be a very long and slow process. A process that will be painful IMO.

Tue, 04/05/2005 - 13:42

#17

VeritasGames

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Joined: 08/01/2008

Re: Another reply and a topic I forgot to clarify

Larienna wrote:

I am not sure about that. I bought a pack of 250 8"x11" card board sheet' for only 12$. A Color Ink cartridge, for a not-too-old printer, cost around 20$. With this material, you going to be able to print more than 1 copy of the game. ( Yes it depend of the game ). But for example, a non-collectibe card game of 100 card will require 12 sheets of card board and 24 print if they are double sided. If I decide to color print at my university, it cost 1$ per copy. So a 1 sided printing will cost 12$.

Thick color inkjet stock (like 300+ GSM) is almost non-existent. In any case inkjet materials on photopaper is subject to ready scratching without a coat. And they just don't make double-sided inkjet photopaper.

You could print on normal white card stock, but then the quality will be WELL below photopaper or professionally printed playing cards.

To even approximate that you will need to have a very high end ink jet, dye sub, or laser printer.

The point: the quality will be lower unless you have high end materials and tools or unless you outsource.

I honestly don't want to pay $15.00 for a game that I then have to spend $10-$20 printing out on my color inkjet. For $20-35 I should be able to get professionally printed cards.

For games that don't require a complex board or components (where you have to inkjet out a page or two) people may not balk.

Otherwise, most will.

Unless the game costs less than $15.00 _TOTAL_ then people will care about component quality.

Tue, 04/05/2005 - 15:31

#18

Anonymous

Downloadable build-yourself board games

FWIW, unvarnished or unlaminated cards also make a very substandard medium for playing cards. I would either laminate my copy or get the plastic CCG card protectors to put them in. These are acceptable solutions, but add considerably to the cost (the protectors add about $5 per 50 cards per color and the lamination material can be costly for those who already have a laminator).

Something else that would put me off is my inability to print out a board at what I would consider to be an acceptable board size. That's where Kinko's would come in (and a high cost at that). Either that or they would have to piece together a board from 8.5 x 11 pages.

Tue, 04/05/2005 - 15:41

#19

Zzzzz

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Joined: 06/20/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

SiskNY wrote:

Either that or they would have to piece together a board from 8.5 x 11 pages.

And again, most people will not want to do this. Or better yet will not understand how to correctly produce "decent/usable" board.

Just think about the number of ppl on this board that struggle with making a prototype(for their own games). And most of us at least have additional help from members like SiskNY that right up great "how-to's".

Thu, 04/07/2005 - 03:28

#20

OldScratch

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Joined: 12/31/1969

Downloadable build-yourself board games

I still can't really say how well my game will sell, since I haven't finished it or started advertising. Just a quick FYI about my games, it's a fantasy adventure game, which I'm selling for $12.50 USD. I've sold it to over 10 people so far, and each say they got their money's worth.

True, it doesn't come with any physical elements. I know that's a bad thing. But what I've learned is that some people don't much need a pretty game, but rather a functional game.

The game is something like HeroQuest, but more advanced. It's already got more content than HeroQuest and all its expansions combined. My buyers really like having so much game content for such little money. I've also heard that it's better having a game that works great and you really get lots of content to keep you busy for a long time, rather than having a pretty game that is broken, and is boring after you play it two or three times.

So, it's really all dependent on how much you give the buyer in terms of content. Chutes and Ladders as a print and play game? Two or three bucks. A fully loaded game that will keep you busy for a long, long time? Significantly more.

As a side note, people don't have to take the game to Kinko's to get it printed. Just print a low quality copy at home. The game still plays the same, with lower quality printouts. Hell, for my game, I haven't even printed out some of the parts yet. I used graph paper and a permanent pen to make the game boards.

Some will still argue that selling a game in electronic format just sucks and won't appeal to anyone, but you never know until you try.

I always use the game Frag as a comparison. They sold that game for 35 bucks for a deck of cards and some pretty lame looking boards (posters, really), and some real crappy looking game pieces. Not a whole lot of depth to the game (the rules are about two pages long). The artwork on the cards are pretty lame as well. But do I think I got my money's worth? Definitely. The game's fun. It doesn't matter that it looks bad, or that it doesn't come with much. As long as you and your friends have fun with it, then it's worth whatever price you paid.

Once my game is finished and I begin to advertise, I'll definitely let you guys know how sales go, win or lose. I don't have tremendous expectations of it, but feedback has suggested that the game should sell.

As a final note I'm gonna say one more thing. My game has been compared to the new Doom Boardgame. It's a cool game. It sells for 40 or 50 bucks, I think. The game is real pretty. Comes with lots of figures, an awesome board (board pieces actually), and tons of counters and stuff. The rules are pretty good. Not too simple and not complicated. However, the rules are limited. Once you play through the game once, there's really not much difference with the next time you play it. And, the game comes with only 5 scenarios. After that, it's up to you to create more. Their "campaign" rules are weak, and take up only about 3 short paragraphs to explain how they work.

Compared to what you'd get with my game, the Doom boardgame is dwarfed in comparison. It's not to say that it's a bad game. I enjoy playing it. But it's a comparison of game content versus physical contents. Some people like pretty games, some people like games with functionality. The latter will buy downloadable games if they truly offer a greater gaming experience.

Thu, 04/07/2005 - 07:28

#21

jwarrend

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Joined: 08/03/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

OldScratch wrote:

True, it doesn't come with any physical elements. I know that's a bad thing. But what I've learned is that some people don't much need a pretty game, but rather a functional game.

This is a false dilemma. It's possible, even commonplace, to be able to get a game that is both pretty and functional. I could rattle off 50 in the blink of an eye, if you'd like.

I think that OldScratch and Larienna aren't really listening to what the others are saying, and instead arguing why your idea will work. Look, no one's trying to talk you out of pursuing a print-and-play model -- if you want to do it, go for it! We hope it works out great, and please tell us how it goes! But you asked us what we think, and on that, I think everyone who's responded is in unanimous agreement -- it's going to be a seriously uphill road.

To my mind, you're up against at least 3 big negatives:

1. Quality. Already covered by the others. Many of us would rather pay $30 for a "pretty" game than even $5 for an "ugly" game. There's no sense arguing about how foolish that may be: it's a reality that your business plan must take into account.

Another aspect of this, which Johan touched on, is time. To me, time is a valuable asset. Investing 2+ hours to print one of my own prototypes is hard to find, but I do it out of love for the game. It would be hard to justify such an investment of time for a game that I hadn't played.

2. Perception of quality. Buying a published game conveys a sense of quality control -- that the game has been through the wringer and most of the flaws have been beat out of the game system. Plus, there must be something good in there that caused the publisher to pick the game up in the first game. A self-published game is more of a crap-shoot, and a web published game even moreso. Particularly with the time involved in making the thing, it's more of a risk if the underlying game stinks. (not that your games do).

3. Too many choices. This, to me, is what every designer is up against. Game players have many choices for games available, and a game has to be very special to compete for table time. A print and play game has to be INCREDIBLY good to overcome factors 1 and 2 to be able to compete with another game. It's the whole "if I can just put this $30 game on the table, which I know to be very good, why should I invest $10 and 2-3 hours taking a chance on this web-published game?"

There's also the problem of how you make people aware of your game, but any new company will likely have that problem.

I think there's no reason the idea can't work, particularly if you've got a truly great game. There have been a couple of web-published games that I've seen on the 'Geek that I considered (very briefly!) printing out and giving a go.

The bottom line is, it's highly unlikely that you're going to be able to afford the $1 million house down the street from web publishing. But presumably, that's not why you're doing this anyway. Good luck, and please keep us posted on how it goes!

-Jeff

Thu, 04/07/2005 - 23:28

#22

OldScratch

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Joined: 12/31/1969

Downloadable build-yourself board games

jwarrend wrote:

This is a false dilemma. It's possible, even commonplace, to be able to get a game that is both pretty and functional. I could rattle off 50 in the blink of an eye, if you'd like.

I think that OldScratch and Larienna aren't really listening to what the others are saying, and instead arguing why your idea will work. Look, no one's trying to talk you out of pursuing a print-and-play model -- if you want to do it, go for it! We hope it works out great, and please tell us how it goes! But you asked us what we think, and on that, I think everyone who's responded is in unanimous agreement -- it's going to be a seriously uphill road.

First off, I never said that a game has to be either pretty or good, and not both at the same time. I was just saying that some people prefer a game that functions great but doesn't look that good over a game that has great components but only has a small playability margin.

I've listened to plenty of opinions on the subject, and take any advice I get. Sure, I'm stating why the idea will work, but I also know that it's not going to make me a millionaire. Personally it's offensive that you suggest that's what I think. I never said that anyone here was wrong with what advice they gave, rather I just gave my own advice and experience on the subject. I even said that I don't have great expectations for my game. Assuming that I turn a deaf ear to all the advice I don't like is just rude. I'm just trying to encourage others who are going down this road. I mean, it's better than nothing.

So far the way I see my game, I've already made over $100 profit on it. I design and do the artwork myself; that's all hobby. I build the game on my spare time. I enjoy doing it. My personal friends and others I've sold it to enjoy it as well. So far, then, I think I'm doing pretty good. The only money that'll come out of my pocket will be for copyrighting the game before I begin to advertise and sell it.

To sum up what I've been saying, go for it. Do it, especially if your development cost is next to nothing. You have nothing to lose, especially if you enjoy creating the game and playing it. You may even make a few extra bucks. I'm not attacking anyone's opinions or saying that anyone's wrong. I've gotten some great advice from this site and I love coming here (though I haven't recently due to a full time job), but it's a great place.

Fri, 04/08/2005 - 06:28

#23

jwarrend

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Joined: 08/03/2008

Downloadable build-yourself board games

OldScratch wrote:

First off, I never said that a game has to be either pretty or good, and not both at the same time. I was just saying that some people prefer a game that functions great but doesn't look that good over a game that has great components but only has a small playability margin.

Ok, I'll grant that. But I'd also say that the number of games that have great components but small playability margin (whatever that means) is vanishingly small. Most published games play well, and it's not hard to find ones that play extremely well. I think that it's not hard to see how I could have construed the following statement as suggesting that there was a dichotomy you were attempting to draw between your game and published "pretty" games:

OldScratch wrote:

Some people like pretty games, some people like games with functionality.

but since you've clarified, I'll drop it. The bottom line is, your post makes it sounds like you're competing against the clunkers, but from a business standpoint, you're not -- you're competing against the very best games. Having said that, I'll note that Doom has been quite well received; if you have a game that's better than Doom, you may indeed have something that people will be willing to go through the "hassle" of printing themselves.

Quote:

Sure, I'm stating why the idea will work, but I also know that it's not going to make me a millionaire. Personally it's offensive that you suggest that's what I think.

Perhaps you're not familiar with the rhetorical art of using exaggeration to make a point?

Quote:

Assuming that I turn a deaf ear to all the advice I don't like is just rude.

I have no idea whether you turn a deaf ear to advice or not. What was clear to me was that your post did not engage at all the other responses in the thread. Having said that, you did provide anecdotal evidence, which I suppose counts for something, and probably more than our theoretical arguments.

Quote:

So far the way I see my game, I've already made over $100 profit on it. I design and do the artwork myself; that's all hobby. I build the game on my spare time. I enjoy doing it. My personal friends and others I've sold it to enjoy it as well. So far, then, I think I'm doing pretty good. The only money that'll come out of my pocket will be for copyrighting the game before I begin to advertise and sell it.

I completely agree, you're having fun and making a few bucks -- that's great! I think that Larienna, though, is looking at this more of a business venture, so perhaps the cautionary posts in this thread apply more to him (her?).

Quote:

To sum up what I've been saying, go for it. Do it, especially if your development cost is next to nothing.

Agreed!

Best of luck,
-Jeff

Fri, 04/08/2005 - 07:23

#24

english

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Joined: 12/31/1969

Print it yourself game model

Hi there

Just thought I'd add a few more thoughts into the mix.

There's a lot of good comments being made in this thread. I'm really interested as the download & print it model is something I'm comtemplating as part of the 'marketing mix' for my game.

Has anyone got any experience (or considered) the extra bandwidth costs?

By way of explanation if you're using .pdf files as the media that you're supplying to the consumer the file sizes may get quite big (expecially if you've got colour board artwork etc.).

If you're paying for your web hosting and your 'product' is getting downloaded a lot, it's going to chew through your bandwidth pretty quick - especially if you're successful at getting people to download it.

This means you'll have to pay for more bandwidth so you will have an extra cost that will impact on your profits.

(Not sure whether this is applicable in the USA but in the UK it is a factor).

The way I was considering using the download model was one of two ways:

1. Offer a partial 'taster/rules lite' version for free which doesn't have all the extra goodies (main course/full rules). A consumer can then have a taste - it's up to you to design something suitably tantalising to make them want the main course.

or

2. Offer the 'taster' version at a low cost which they can reclaim as money off the full version should they go on to buy it.

My preferred option is no.2 as you can cover some of the costs of the downloads that way.

Note: Full version could be a 'boxed' game or bigger '.pdf' depending on your personal business model.

I'm planning on having a boxed version with the .pdf 'taster'.

Carl

Fri, 04/08/2005 - 15:07

#25

OldScratch

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Joined: 12/31/1969

Downloadable build-yourself board games

jwarrend wrote:

I have no idea whether you turn a deaf ear to advice or not. What was clear to me was that your post did not engage at all the other responses in the thread. Having said that, you did provide anecdotal evidence, which I suppose counts for something, and probably more than our theoretical arguments.

My post didn't say anything about what everyone else wrote for one specific reason: I wasn't challenging anyone's opinions or advice that had been written here.

Anyways, sure there's not a whole lot of games that sell that are just pretty and non functional. Doom is a great game, as I said before. It's lots of fun. But only including 5 scenarios and duct-taping a campaign mode together just leaves the game as being the 'same old thing' once you've played through it once or twice. Though some people (myself included) love creating their own content for games such as these, a lot of people don't want to go through all that, and even more people don't have the skill to create custom scenarios that are anything more than 'go into this place and kill everything you see'. So far Fantasy Flight has put out a single scenario that you can download and print. That's great, but when I buy a game, I want to be able to play it over and over again more than I want a ton of figures. A total of six official scenarios is too little, in my opinion.

I don't know if I came off as being defensive when I first posted on this thread, but I can assure you I wasn't trying to defend anything, but rather give some reasons of why someone would want to try going down this road. I know print and play isn't everyone's bag, but if someone wants to do it, it's definitely a lot more reasonable than having to take out a loan to publish a game that you're not sure will sell, providing you don't put too much money into it.

Sat, 04/09/2005 - 11:41

#26

larienna

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Joined: 07/28/2008

Still adding information (^_^)

HI

I tought that the discussion ended, but it still going on! Here is a few other information I want to share.

1- Just for your information, Even if the avatar "Larienna" is a gril, I am a guy. "Larienna" is one of my AD&D character. I normally use the nick name "Shadow", but since "Shadow" is a too common nick name, there is an high probability that some body else registered as this name. So on online subscription and First Person Shooter, I use "Larienna" instead.

2- Another thing I want to say is that when I buy a new game, before even starting playing, I always plastify the game. I use auto-adhesive plastic for cardboard and plastic cover for cards. Adesive plastic cost around 25$ CAD for 20 meters (can also be used for books) and Transparent Plastic covers cost me around 1.50 CAD$ for 100 cards. Then I use a plastic bag sealer, and cut the plastic to the card's size. Finaly I use a needle to make a hole in the corner to remove the air. Yes I am freak, but it increase the longevity of the game.

Since I am always doing some work on a game before playing It, it might be the reason why I don't mind building the game myself. Still, I have to admit that this kind of building passion is not for everyone.

3- If I ever publish a game. I might be thinking doing it this way if I can do a printed version.

- Distribute it as a commercial game in my local area of the world.
- Indicate on the box, that if they find this game too expensive, they can download it in build-yourself.
- And if you do not live in the local distributed area, you can download the build-yourself version.

I could also ship printed game by mail, but I am not sure yet.

One thing for sure, what ever path I chose, I will place a build yourself demo on my web site to be familiar with the game and to evaluate if it is worth buying it. I also had the idea of splitting the rules and the printout in 2 different package.

For example, a 15$ game could sell the rules for 5$ and the print-out for 10$. You pay 5$, and look at the rules. If you like the game, you download the printout. In this way, if you don't like the game, you won't waste all your money.

Like I said before, since game are expensive when I live, I am not ready to pay the price. But I know that some people makes too much money( or it is me who is not making enough) don't mind paying 60$ per game plus 30$ per expansion. Or they don't mind bying a 120 CAD$ warhammer basic set. If I distribute the game in both ways, people like me will now have the option to download the game if they don't want to pay an high price. If the games currently available on the market would allow this option, I will be willing to buy them this way.

4- Yes there is the electronic bandwith issue which is a good point. OK, I might be lucky. I have a permanent account on my old college server, so I can make free web site for the rest of my life or the server's life. Still I cannot place files for download there. Then there is my friend who has an high speed internet connection with a server where I can place the files. Theorically, I can get it out with 0$ internet fees. But my friend might not like an increase in his bandwith, if it really get's ugly. In this case, I could always pay him something or give him something else than money in exchange.

This is it. When I am replying, I try not to repeat my self too much since it can get anoying. We could debate for years you know, ... since it is a debate. Still, I appreciate all your comment and they are always well received even if they are negative. If I do publish a game this way, I will give you some feed back on my experience. Thanks to all.

Sayonara (^_^)

Larienna
a.k.a. the Shadow

Wed, 04/13/2005 - 20:01

#27

Anonymous

Downloadable build-yourself board games

OldScratch wrote:

I always use the game Frag as a comparison. They sold that game for 35 bucks for a deck of cards and some pretty lame looking boards (posters, really), and some real crappy looking game pieces. Not a whole lot of depth to the game (the rules are about two pages long). The artwork on the cards are pretty lame as well. But do I think I got my money's worth? Definitely. The game's fun. It doesn't matter that it looks bad, or that it doesn't come with much. As long as you and your friends have fun with it, then it's worth whatever price you paid.

When I designed Frag I had in mind a real board and figures -- that was shot down very quickly.

I'm glad you think the game's fun, though.

Wed, 04/13/2005 - 20:05

#28

Anonymous

Downloadable build-yourself board games

I have practically no experience with selling downloadable board games but I have sold a lot of RPG PDFs.

If you want to sell downloadable games I recommend taking a look at RPGNow. That's the site I earn most of my money at and they sell downloadable board and card games.

http://www.rpgnow.com/default.php?cPath=3&

I think some board and card games at the site have sold 100+ copies but I'm not sure of the specific numbers. I do know that a "Copper" popular pick has sold between 50-99 copies and a "Silver" has sold 100-249. I hope that helps some.

Thu, 04/14/2005 - 09:43

#29

phpbbadmin

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Joined: 04/23/2013

Downloadable build-yourself board games

philreed wrote:

OldScratch wrote:
I always use the game Frag as a comparison. They sold that game for 35 bucks for a deck of cards and some pretty lame looking boards (posters, really), and some real crappy looking game pieces. Not a whole lot of depth to the game (the rules are about two pages long). The artwork on the cards are pretty lame as well. But do I think I got my money's worth? Definitely. The game's fun. It doesn't matter that it looks bad, or that it doesn't come with much. As long as you and your friends have fun with it, then it's worth whatever price you paid.

When I designed Frag I had in mind a real board and figures -- that was shot down very quickly.

I'm glad you think the game's fun, though.

Phil,

Steve Jackson is famous for selling what I would call undervalued board games (I.E. High prices for games that have very low quality components). Do you think you could ever rerelease Frag with the higher quality components that you wanted originally? I know Frag is a cult favorite among 'transition' gamers (gamers that tend to like video games, wargames) so I think a retooled version would probably go over well.

-Darke

Thu, 04/14/2005 - 10:12

#30

Anonymous

Downloadable build-yourself board games

Darkehorse wrote:

Steve Jackson is famous for selling what I would call undervalued board games (I.E. High prices for games that have very low quality components). Do you think you could ever rerelease Frag with the higher quality components that you wanted originally? I know Frag is a cult favorite among 'transition' gamers (gamers that tend to like video games, wargames) so I think a retooled version would probably go over well.

Unfortunately, I have no control over Frag -- I get royalties on the game but Steve Jackson Games owns the game and can do anything they want with it. And since I quit working for the company almost a year ago I doubt I would be informed of any changes -- or given any input -- on any future Frag products/releases.

While I'd love to produce some games with the quality components I always wanted for Frag I'm currently forced to operate on very modest levels. My first non-RPG releases this summer will be very small games (with small prices). But who knows, perhaps my company will grow to a point that I can publish the games with the component quality I always wanted while I was working at SJGames. (This is very unlikely.)

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