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Asymmetrical gameplay - how does one achieve it ?

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Crensh3000ad
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Hello dear ladies and gents,

it seems everyone is waiting for FFG's new interpretation of Richard Garfield's legendary Netrunner card game.
Hence, I started musing about its outstanding success despite its now-defunct status and its skyrocketing prices on eBay.

Thing is, Netrunner has this cool eurogame-thingy. It gives the players choices whether to draw cards, play new cards/activate cards in play or to get some resources for playing cards. No random-resource-bad-draw, no sticking to unlucky first draws, no other MtG bullshit - just like the new Warhammer: Invasion, you decide what to do in your turn, dependent on what you have in your hand and what you plan to do with it.

The other, even more amazing aspect is the point of assymetrical gameplay at which I would like to ask for your opinion.

The basic notion behind it - as I see it - is that you play toy soldiers not with the same toy infantry soldiers in different colours like red and green. Instead, you get to play toy soldiers against dinosaurs, alien flying saucers or giant robots which feel different, move different and maybe even have an entirely different victory condition. Different sides should feel different, not like the same colourplay in MtG or the old Middle-Earth CCG, in which orc and troll-guys were using the same rule-mechanics as the good guys (moving around, dodging hazards, playing items, factions and allies). Of course, it was nice to play, but at the end, the game remained the same.

What, in your eyes makes a good assymetrical game ? Do you know any noteworthy board game design examples other than Netrunner ?

I am wondering whether I could make a an adventure game in which the good guys must score victory points and the bad guys must achieve something completely different, but I am not sure what it shoud be (kill many good guys ? steal their stuff ? ). Can such a thing even be done in a board game ? Starcraft achieved such a thing - the three factions were different to play, but they remained balanced and developed completely independently from each other.

I am grateful for any kind of notions on that topic.

gabrielcohn
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a few ideas...

War of the Ring has extremely asymmetrical gameplay--different cards, units, actions, positions, dice, victory conditions, etc. Not being experienced with wargames, i do think this is more common in that realm...

My favorite game as a teenager, Illuminati, has asymmetrical start positions and asymmetrical winning conditions, but you play by the same rules more or less...

Castles of Burgundy has different boards, which give people very different ways to score points...

i guess, as far as that goes, lots of games have different start and end conditions--depending on your starting cards/characters/etc.

Sorry if that wasn't useful, just thinking about it since i find the idea interesting...

KAndrw
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Ogre is the classic

Ogre is the classic asymmetrical game for me, and more recently I've taken a shine to the PnP 'Twelve Doctors' game (search for it on BGG) - which is like an asymmetric reinvention of San Juan mixed with the old Decipher Star Wars CCG.

desperadonate
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Good old RPS?

This has been something I've been wondering about myself. I think rather than having different goals, the key might be in the units themselves act. I've heard the old Dune game was very good about balancing very different forces, but I haven't played it myself. I don't know of too many card games which do this (other than Illuminati, perhaps), but there are a number of tabletop games which are good about balancing different forces (Warmachine, Warhammer, Warhammer 40k, or even Heroclixs, to an extent) you can look at for inspiration, though you only have to look at how frequently rules are revised for those games to see how difficult it can be to find a balance that's "just right."

I think you bring up a good example with Starcraft. I think part of the reason why Starcraft works well is that there's only three different armies you can play with, which is far easier to balance than if there were five or more different factions.

When you look in more detail at how the forces are balanced, I think there's a couple of things that stand out. If you look at the overall strategy of each type, you'll see that the Zerg can build a large force cheaply, while the Protoss have probably the most elite units of each type, but at a high cost, while the Terrans are somewhere in between. They have versatile forces which are more powerful (and expensive) than the Zerg, but which aren't quite as elite (or costly) as the equivalent Protoss units (i.e. Battlecruisers are pretty awesome, but they cannot wreck as much havoc and devastation as a Carrier).

When you break it down further, you can see that for every unit one force has, the other two have an effective counter. Look at how easily a group of Scourge can take down a Carrier, or how effective Firebats are against Zerglings, or how easily Zerglings can overwhelm Dragoons. No matter how powerful a unit is, or how fast it is to build them, there's always a counter. Once you can get each of the different factions essentially playing an elaborate game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, you know you've got a good balance of asymetrical units. I think that might be a good place to start - figure out a basic unit for one faction, then see how you can create an effective counter which acts in a radically different way. Once you have one basic unit for each type (i.e. light infantry), then look at how you might create units which are effective against (or vulnerable to) those basic units (i.e. heavy infantry, vehicles, etc).

edit: For your adventure game idea, what if the Good Guys were strong, but once killed, were permanently eliminated from the game (or at least given a long cool-down or other severe setback), while the Bad Guys could summon/create hordes of minions. The minion hordes would be weaker than the Good Guys, but could be replaced with little cost, so the Bad Guys could be more aggressive with their units while the Good Guys might be more risk averse.

Traz
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OGRE rocks!

I'll second OGRE! It is the ultimate asymmetrical game. One unit against everything else on the board.

The easiest way to build asymmetrical is to catalogue all your aspects/abilities.

Attack
Defense
Armor
Power
Speed
Flying
[insert your own list here]

That's six items. Decide how many units total for the game [we'll assume 40]. Give four abilities to 10 units [SIDE A] and the other two to 30 units [SIDE B].

Or vice versa! ;-)

Adjust force sizes to taste during development.

Have random victory condition chits, each player draws 2 and must fulfill 1.

Enjoy.

KViki
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asymmetrical chess matches

If I would develop an asymmetrical gameplay, I immediately think of chess. The sicilian game is a good example of what it means: 1.e4 c5 ... and there are many choices after that. The point is, that the black is playing (in means of location) on his Queen's side, instead of countering on the King's side. I mean, the figures have an ultimately different position when they are played on the other side. They are attacked in a different way and they attack different figures. So the players are seemingly playing the same game, moving figures here and there, but all the tactics and strategy is really different. White plays to attack the opponent's King, while defending his own, while black tries to overwhelm the white on the other side of the board to achieve some avantage, capture one more pawn or so. The sicilian game is very typical and very dynamic in tactical way, and popular among the chess players.

The key to asymmetry is, that the players are playing ... not the same. They decide, which approach they wish to play and they still have the possibility of winning. But, the board games differ from chess. Definitely one should include more playstyles than just one or two to make the gameplay asymmetrical, while all possibly leading to win. There comes the difficulty of balancing all the games to make the approaches equal. Otherwise, everyone would play only the strongest one, and the game wouldnt be asymmetric, but a race to be the fastest. A countering mechanic (r-p-s) is always good.

hope i helped, kviki

GreenO
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Noteworthy assymetrical board game design examples

Choas in the Old World is probably a good place to start. Four chaos gods with very different win conditions competing on an open board.

Multiplayer examples are a lot harder to come by than two player examples, of which there are a few: Ogre, Revolver, The Thing, and examples like Battlestar Galactica and Fury of Dracula which are 'opposing team games' in essence.

Sausageman
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GreenO wrote:Choas in the Old

GreenO wrote:
Choas in the Old World is probably a good place to start. Four chaos gods with very different win conditions competing on an open board.

Multiplayer examples are a lot harder to come by than two player examples, of which there are a few: Ogre, Revolver, The Thing, and examples like Battlestar Galactica and Fury of Dracula which are 'opposing team games' in essence.


Well, Matt Green, as I live and breathe...

Surely most 1 vs many games have opposed or completely different win conditions depending on your side? Or at least differing alternate ways to win. Is this what you were looking for?

GreenO
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Ah, you're only guessing

Ah, you're only guessing Martin.
*poker face*
Yeah, basically 1 vs many games are 2 player asymmetrical games with other players tagged onto one side to give the illusion of a multiplayer interaction. I'm probably not the right guy to ask about those though, given that I psychotically freaking hate every last one of them that I've ever played, and particularly Fury of Dracula.

Looking back through BGG geeklists of asymmetric games there are very few true multiplayer games with different victory conditions for each player. The only other one in recent years that fitted the bill was Martin Wallace's Dicscworld: Ankh Moorpork. This list has a few interesting older games too:

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/5531/different-victory-conditions-moth...

Crensh3000ad
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First, let me thank you all

First, let me thank you all for contributing so much to this difficult topic. It feels great to be part of a community being so generous with rare and unique knowledge unavailable anywhere else.

I was looking to expand my knowledge on games which are based asymmetric gameplay.
Actually, I consider myself lucky you throw so many bones at me, Ogre looks like a real granddaddy of asymmetry in games - it feels great to become enlightened in such incredibly interesting areas of gaming history - and now I am looking forward to those "history lessons" :o)))

Yes, basically, these game-master-driven-games (1 vs. many) seem like way to go - a precise example would be War of the Ring, where the almost-omnipotent Sauron fights the greatest heroes the world has to offer - by sending his countless troops against them. This aspect is completely neglected in the old MECCG, as both sides use the same game mechanics and the same winning conditions.

What has emerged from my mind so far is an adventure game in which heroes fight villains (duh!).
While the good guys are fewer and/or weaker, they are out to score victory points - the bad guys, however, need to do something completely different. Area control may be one example (probably similar to the one used in Company of Heroes, which can be conquered and be taken back), but I do not want to stop there. The biggest danger to avoid is having two different systems with no/very little points of interaction - this would make the "hero" players play their own game without caring for the bay guys.

"So the players are seemingly playing the same game, moving figures here and there, but all the tactics and strategy is really different. "

This is the problem I have with M:tG - it is the same game just with other strategies for every colour, just like most other games on the market.

My dream of an asymmetrical game would be something like this: I pit Godzilla, Rodan and Megalon against the US Military and a squad of evil superheroes, all fighting against each other. First, the US Military has many smaller units, they depend on economy for supply and launch dozens of single (easily replaceable) units against their foes. Second, the evil superheroes can combine their (numerous) powers to defeat ANY kind of enemy but their numbers are scarce and not all of them can cheat death. Third, each giant monster can rely only on itself and its (very few) superpowers like atomic breath and tail whiplash.
All factions have diferent movement patterns and have discernibly different victory conditions:

-> The US Military must defeat as many enemies as possible, scoring many victory points and come to terms with their somewhat limited budget.

-> The monsters need to simply survive all the fights and physically retreat to the monster island.

-> The evil heroes need to occupy as many areals as possible (thus increasing their malicious influence on the world) AND accomplish a wipeout of all other evil superheroes - last man standing !

GreenO
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Your game synopsis jogged my

Your game synopsis jogged my memory.

It sounds interesting too and having heard you pitch would firmly suggest that you look at the Aliens vs Predator CCG. Reviewed here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/804320/5-out-of-10-an-unsuccesful-but-am...

Players play either Predator/Aliens/Marines. Game plays either 2 or three players and each faction has different scenario-based victory conditions. By all accounts getting the balance right was the critical flaw in the game that was made multitudes worse by using a CCG model. It was, however, thematically very good and a lot of fun to play as long as nobody bought a load of power cards.

Crensh3000ad
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Thanks for your hint

Thanks for your hint regarding AvP. Somehow, this CCG managed to slip out of my "game of asymmetry" searchlist. Unfortunately, it seems pretty hard to get :-( On the other hand, the rules can be found online and there are some usable spoiler lists in order to get a decent idea of the game and its components.

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