Rulebook NOT included?!?!

Similar in vein to 'Cheapass games' in their early days.....and as someone else who has component light games, I agree in less can be more.

In saying that, with the rise of Kickstarter and stretch goals, customers want finished products...no matter how many dice they already have.

I had the same thought about rules as a PDF....I have them on the website as a doc for download for anyone to access, but, when people buy the game, they want to be able to get started as soon as they open the box.

Some may not have printers, know they need to do this may put off the sale...a whole load of potential negatives.

Again, I'd been avoiding costly packaging using our little dice pouches as the package. The thing is that people WANT fancy art & boxes / packaging. Certainly retailers want that too.

Check out these guys Kris

http://www.boardgamesmaker.com/print/fi_8300.html

What if your manual is folded, just as big as your cards? The manual and cards could simply be put in your basic little card box. Since you only have 12 cards, there will be plenty of room left.
You even could split the manual in 2 if another part is less needed.

And regarding dice, some people have to travel a long way in purchasing dice as well. Might as well add it to the game. Since most shops that sell games, do not sell the dice. (At least, not here where I live)

If you just needed standard d6 of which I have dozens lying about, or maybe just one small set of D&D dice, AND it was very clear in the purchasing that I would need to supply these, I wouldn't mind. But if you send me hunting through more than one set, or you have specific requirements (i.e. 2 red d6, 2 white d6 and 4 d20's of any color), I'd be put off.

Dry erase markers is more of a pain. I might have one, I might not. I might pull out a Sharpie, thinking it would work, and permanently mark on the board.

Where are you getting the game manufactured such that it is $8.00 for only 12 cards. (You said plus artwork -- is that a larger board, or what? Is that the thing I use the dry erase marker on?)

If you can get the "artwork" on to another few cards, then DriveThruCards is a whole lot cheaper than that, something like 8.5 cents per card for good quality stock. I see that they also offer larger formats, up to full sheets, that might work for your artwork and/or instructions.

It looks like I owe questccg an apology then. I miss read and miss interrupted your posting, for that I am sorry.

I do agree with others that the price you are paying for 12 cards seems to be very high. What type of plastic or finishing are you using or thinking of using? Are you trying to get mini dry erase boards in card format? Is there some place outside of game crafter you can look for a cheaper price?

I think the best argument against shipping games with "you need to add your own _____" is Cheapass games. This used to be their publishing model. They've stopped publishing games that way -- they do kickstarter and make complete games now.

I think the people who would be willing to supply the rest of their components are the PNP fans, in which case you shouldn't even sell the cards -- just sell them the PDF for a few bucks.

But if you're going to make the game, make the game.

I don't really have a problem with dice not being included, apart from when trying to entice new gamers in. I think lots of people will either have dice or will not mind buying some. I however think that not including a rule book really would put me off the product.

First, I like to have the rules with me to read and for teaching. You say "o.k but you can print them off" I say, "yep, but if I wanted to be bothered with that I'd play P&P games". Also when people show this game to their friends and they have printed off the rules at a low ink setting to save some money, its going to look like really poor production from your company.

I feel that if leaving out the rule book was a legitimate way to reduce costs, without effecting perception of the product, it would have been done by big companies.

I'm glad my idea gave you a new spark! I was thinking of Legacy when I suggested it.

However, I would like to warn you against too much comparison with that trend. You would actually be walking a thin line between Legacy and fully replayable games, in that the players only need to buy a relatively inexpensive replacement pack to continue playing once they've used up what they have. Of course, if your game is successful, you probably won't sell many pure replacement packs because what you'll sell are upgrade packs that include a (smallish) free replacement set of the base cards. Also, you're not talking about "one full play through" as being all you buy, as the legacy trend seems to be, but something in between that and a fully replayable game.

Finally, I don't know how much your game changes as it goes, but I think that the legacy trend is that there are pretty significant changes, not just bonuses and penalties to existing skills. Of course, now that you have this new spark of creativity, you'll probably be adding these things.

My concern with you claiming too much "legacy-ness" is that you'll get criticism from both sides. People who dislike the concept will criticize you for using it, but people who love the concept will criticize you for not using it enough. I do think you're striking a great balance; I'm just saying that your marketing should make it clear to both sides that your game is "legacy-like" without the drawbacks. (And leave unsaid what they are, so anyone who perceives drawbacks will assume you mean the ones that they think are significant.)

I love this idea! If you find yourself losing in the current game, you might sacrifice it in order to focus on upgrading your units for the next game. (If this strategy isn't viable, you need to modify your game until it is.) Also, you might have certain rules that kick in at different levels of commitment, for best 2 of 3, best 3 of 5, 4 of 7, etc. Or else just something like the following

3rd game of a set: these rules kick in.
5th game of a set: these additional rules
etc.

This would make for a very interesting strategy of optimizing for game 3 (in a 2 of 3 competition), which means you have to manage to pick up one of the first two or you never get to use it. I'm thinking along the lines of

In games 1 & 2, cavalry is significantly better than infantry. In game 3, infantry units get muskets with bayonets and learn "Infantry Square" formation, which gives them a big defensive bonus against cavalry. So someone who focused on acquiring lots of infantry probably had a hard time picking up one of the first two games, but easily dominates in the third, if he gets there. (Conversely, if you win the first game, you can sacrifice the second one to bulk up your infantry and pretty much guarantee yourself the third game. Which means you'll have to make sure that there is a counter to this strategy.)

I don't know if this specific example makes any sense for your game, but you get the idea.

Once again, I'm not trying to change your idea at all, just your marketing spin for it.

I would not refer to writing on the cards as "ruining" or "losing" them. Just accept it as part of the game, and make it clear that the initial purchase has enough to cards to ENJOY ten "best 3 of 5" matches (or however many it will support). That sounds like a lot, but, of course, you keep the marked-up cards through an entire match.

My point is to talk about the feature as what makes the game great, without even a hint that someone might forgo "growing" his cards, just to save a few dollars. People who are naturally cheap will figure that out, anyway. People who are on the fence about buying and trying the game will see it as a negative if you present it that way, at all.

Find someone else who does offer a pack of sleeves?

But then again. I suggested post-its in another topic of yours. To add to that idea. How about easy to remove stickers? If your cards have a good plastic, stickers might be removed very easy.

Now you can choose:
- stickers to write on.
- stickers that hold pictures or texts with effects.

Bottom line, if they are removable. You safe the card any way.

Not sure if this was already mentioned. I didn't see it so I'll ask:
How long is your rulebook? Is it something that can be written out on a single sheet of legal-sized paper (front and back)? Or is it SO long that it's in book/booklet form?

If possible, I think if you can include the rules on a single or even two sheets of paper, do it that way. It'll probably be cheaper than having booklets printed out and added to your game.

If need be, leave out any images from the rule book that aren't actual diagrams and examples to save space. I mean images like decorative borders and images or a randomly placed character.

I don't think people mind if your rules aren't fancy looking. As long as they're well-written.
But yes, the rules is a must-add.