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Hidden Movement: What Makes it Cool?

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Tue, 04/16/2024 - 19:40
Jacob
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Hello!

Jacob here. I have mentioned in my intro post that I am working on a hidden movement game. So far, my outcomes seem to be a bit lack-luster when it comes to the actual hidden movement part of the game.

I have play-tested this game and gotten feedback that the hidden movement was hard to keep up with, (which may be because the map is a screen-shot of the hex-shaped board).

I also feel like the movement is a little uninteresting. (Although I have one idea I haven't tried yet, the movement put down in the rule book is basically flip an action chip and move the hidden piece.)

I do have some 'special cases' that add a bit to the strategy, but on the whole, I think I need a little "sweet sauce" to spice the game up a bit.

If anyone has any ideas or thoughts on what makes a fun hidden movement game, or if you have some ideas for a possible mechanic I may use, feel free to join the discussion!

I would appreciate the help!

Thanks in advance!

-Jacob

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." - Romans 8:30

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Tue, 04/16/2024 - 20:20
#1
questccg
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Specter Ops

This is a Hidden Movement Game that takes part in a Warehouse where the SPY is trying to flee the Warehouse with hidden plans. The players are trying to figure out WHERE(?) the SPY is and attempt to catch him/her.

Personally I think Specter Ops is a very good adaptation of the "Hidden Movement" mechanic... Here's a link to the movement information:

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/5452928/specter-ops

On another note, I've played Scotland Yard and it's HARD to catch the criminal.

Sometimes it comes to a point where the SPY (Mr. X) is cornered and then manages to escape and that ends the game right there ... Because usually when they manage to escape ... They move on to areas which are harder to isolate the SPY or criminal.

I'm not really into hidden movement mechanics or the genre TBH. I just figured I'd share with you ONE (1) Design which uses the mechanics that you are looking for.

Sincerely.

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Tue, 04/16/2024 - 20:32
#2
questccg
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Moreover it's a TOUGH mechanic to implement...

If this is your FIRST (1st) Game that you are trying to design... Hidden Movement is a DIFFICULT mechanic to nail down ... Especially with it being your FIRST attempt at making a game.

Now while I'm not suggesting you design a Roll & Move game (a bit of humor), you see what they do with Spector Ops, right? They use a smaller layout of the Warehouse to allow the Agent to plot his course and ensure that nobody cheats.

That picture can go a LONG way in helping you determine HOW(?) you should implement something that uses that Mechanic.

What I means is that you need a Sheet to Track movement and therefore figure out when a Agent is caught or not... Perhaps you had not thought of such a component and that's exactly WHY I introduced you to that game (Specter Ops).

It goes a LONG WAY into making the Hidden Movement "Manageable"!

Hope that gives you some inspiration and a roadmap to follow. In the worst case you have something you can research a bit (watch a video or two, read some reviews, etc.) and maybe get a better feel for the GENRE.

https://www.dicetower.com/video/miami-dice-episode-154-specter-ops

Cheers!

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Tue, 04/16/2024 - 20:40
#3
Jacob
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Thanks!

I have heard of this game, although I have not played it. But I believe it works through grid movement. Hunters must find the spy, but they only see on the column and row of their current space unless an object blocks line of sight. Meanwhile the spy tries to complete enough of his objectives to win the proceed to escape.

Appreciated.

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Tue, 04/16/2024 - 20:45
#4
Jacob
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Thanks!

Thanks again. I might check out some reviews of this and other games.

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 09:33
#5
larienna
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There is a another game with

There is a another game with hidden movement called something like: "Ninja ... scorpion clan ...". I don't remember the exact title.

In that game, the ninja keep track of movement on paper, while the guard's movement is public.

Fury of Dracula is another game with hidden movement, where the other players are visible. It use a trail of cards to determine location visited.

The most complicated part is if you have double blind hidden movement. Now you need special components to handle collision.

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 14:40
#6
questccg
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How to complicate a game...

larienna wrote:
The most complicated part is if you have double blind hidden movement. Now you need special components to handle collision.

It's a very true that if you have double hidden movement, this makes the game much more complicated. I think in general this kind of mechanic is difficult to master when it comes to the design.

I guess this is something that @Jacob needs to clarify. What are his specific needs when it comes to hidden movement.

Indeed the genre is difficult and when it comes to Scotland Yard, that game is way too hard for the players. I've played a few games and Mr. X always escaped.

So I'm not crazy about this mechanic. In all honesty when I saw Specter Ops, my need to design such a game ended. Why? Because I think this game captures most of the elements in this genre...

Anyway may @Jacob can probably share with us more information. That could definitely help a lot to determine how his adaptation is different...

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 16:05
#7
questccg
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Is this the game you were thinking about???

larienna wrote:
There is a another game with hidden movement called something like: "Ninja ... scorpion clan ...". I don't remember the exact title...

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/101013/ninja-legend-of-the-scorpion-...

Maybe that is the game that you are talking about?! I Googled and found this...

It's Hidden Movement and it's "Ninja ... scorpion clan ..." Hehehe!

Let me know if this is the game your were thinking of... I mean from the name and the Game's Description ... I think it is.

Sincerely.

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 18:14
#8
questccg
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Keeping it real...

Jacob wrote:
Thanks again. I might check out some reviews of this and other games.

I think what could REALLY SELL well is a "Hidden Movement" Game for SOLO PLAY! I don't know if this is even POSSIBLE! Hahaha. But seriously, if you were in a game which relied on AVOIDING NPCs (Non-Playable Characters) and you needed to this in a way which uses "Hidden Movement" and some kind ruleset to control HOW the NPCs react to the player's movement and what sets the rules as to a WIN vs. a LOSS...

Could maybe be INTERESTING... TBH!

I just have not seen anything LIKE THAT and I feel it could be a HUGE market opportunity. Not sure how to implement this and it would probably NOT work for a game like "Specter Ops" ... I also have NO CLUE what kind of THEME would also work in this context?!

I mean the goal is simple: "Hidden Movement with NPCs as AI trying to capture the PLAYER." Sounds simple enough ... But somehow you need a THEME for this to work. And it needs to be tightly integrated such that the game is EXCITING and at the same time SIMPLE ENOUGH to be played. But a challenge for the PLAYER to "beat the game" also!

Like I said, I'm not sure about ALL the "elements". But this could be something worthwhile looking into.

Sincerely.

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 18:38
#9
questccg
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"Midnight at the Museum"

So I have thought a bit more about this SOLITARY "Hidden Movement" type of game. And so after some thought (and searching), I came up with the concept of a "Cat Burglar" who is trying to steal something from the National Museum. Since there are several exhibits, different items of value could exist in each area making the replay-value better because there are different objectives.

The NPCs or AI would be the Museum Guards (The Watchmen) which patrol the grounds of the Museum at night (after Midnight) to ensure that nothing of real value is stolen from the Museum.

That's a pretty interesting concept TBH. I personally LIKE IT. And no I don't like it because it's MY CONCEPT, I like it because it seems to have a LOT of potential (TBH)!

I like the idea of having MULTIPLE scenarios with different items that need to be stolen because that of course means that the players will have multiple tries and different marks as objectives.

Right now that's all I got. But I do feel like it is CLEVER... And may put it in the back of my mind ... For further development as the concept evolves (if it evolves at all too!)

Anyhow... This is just one idea, I'm sure designers can come up with more SOLO adventures that can allow for Hidden Movement.

Let me know what you think or if you have feedback, questions or comments, feel free to reply.

Best.

Note #1: I think the challenge in this instance is HOW to create the "Museum". If it's DYNAMIC (Big Squares) like this:

https://www.thegamecrafter.com/make/products/SquareDeck

And you have a Total of 12 Tiles and the board is a 3 x 3 (9 in Total) meaning that the museum SET-UP varies per scenario, making it easier or harder for certain of the treasures to be stolen by the "Cat Burglar" (YOU - The Player).

This SETUP which can vary but is explained in the MUSEUM SETUP which varies per caper being attempted adds to the replayability and TENSION because not only are the runs different, they have elements that either make things harder to beat or easier ... Depending on the nature of the exhibit.

Like for example the "Hope Diamond" has to ALWAYS be in the CENTER of the "Museum" SETUP. And of course there is a ton of security around it... And there is empty room around the Jewel Case that protects it. This makes it HARDER to steal not to mention the alarm system around that exhibit at Midnight... Like I said, I have NOT fleshed out all the details but I guess I could come up with more to make the game have "12" UNIQUE items that are of value and can be stolen...

Note #2: I have Googled a bit just to see what OTHER "Museum" Board Games there are... And I'm not very impressed. There is a CLUE version by Hasbro, a Rush/Run version, and a couple of other games, I'm not quite sure actually QUALIFY as "Museum" games TBH! Haha.

The bottom line is there is ROOM for such a game and it could be something that could ALSO "Incorporate" my "Dual Dice" too... Roll 2DD6 and player moves the TOP (A + A) and the Guards move BOTTOM (B + B) given RULES to manage the AI for the SOLO experience.

Just some quick & dirty ideas... Also you could use 2D6s (STANDARD) for the movement too. In the event you don't own a pair of "Dual Dice"!

Note #3: Why "Dual Dice" would work great in this context:

Quote:
Adding Faces "A + A" will always incur more movement by the Cat Burglar than Faces "B + B" for the guards. And that's pretty neat TBH.

While the player faces rolls of 2 to 6, the Guards face rolls for 0 to 6 (and only ~3% of the times the lowest and highest rolls). Which means that in most cases, the guards are rolling "2" to "4" and the player is rolling "3" to "5". Conversely BETTER odds for the players rather than equal-likely odds of 2D6s (When using Standard D6s).

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 21:15
#10
Jacob
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Some Clarification

questccg wrote:
It's a very true that if you have double hidden movement, this makes the game much more complicated. I think in general this kind of mechanic is difficult to master when it comes to the design.

I guess this is something that @Jacob needs to clarify. What are his specific needs when it comes to hidden movement.

Indeed the genre is difficult and when it comes to Scotland Yard, that game is way too hard for the players. I've played a few games and Mr. X always escaped.

So I'm not crazy about this mechanic. In all honesty when I saw Specter Ops, my need to design such a game ended. Why? Because I think this game captures most of the elements in this genre...

Anyway may @Jacob can probably share with us more information. That could definitely help a lot to determine how his adaptation is different...

My game does use double hidden movement, although the hidden pieces are not involved in catching the other hidden pieces.

In order to win, players have to sneak their hidden pieces by their opponent while balancing exploring with their other forces and building new units. A game ends when a player successfully gets their scoring pieces past the enemy into a scoring area. Pieces are caught when a troop, by spending an action, checks a space or spaces for scoring pieces. If a piece is in the checked space, the piece is caught. Hints are also given if the checked space(s) neighbor a scoring piece's current location owned by another player. A caught piece must start over from the scoring area of the player who controls it. Scoring areas are separated in between a map of hexes.

Hope this helps!
-Jacob

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 21:33
#11
Jacob
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V-Sabotage

I have seen a game use this concept. V-Sabotage is a game set in WWII where players assume the roles of stealthy commandos. In order to win, they have to complete a set objective and at least one team member must escape. Germans are controlled by the game. But the team can't go in guns a' blazing, trying to defeat all the Germans in the base. If the supply of enemy troops runs out, players lose the game!

If you are interested:
https://triton-noir.com/products/v-sabotage?variant=40424727085245

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 21:40
#12
questccg
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It used to be called "V-Commandos"

And I've personally met Triton Noir at a couple Comic Cons where he was demo-ing his game. He initially started with "V-Commandos" after earning $100k in KS Funds to make his game a reality. I have never played his game.

That was even before the Assassin Creed Mini TableTop Games...

Looks like he's done good for himself!

Jacob wrote:
I have seen a game use this concept.

What concept are you referring to? Something in your game, something that @larienna brought up or something that I shared?!

It's just a very vague reference and doesn't explain in what context you are speaking about and how it relates?!

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 21:43
#13
Jacob
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Clarification 2.0

questccg wrote:
And I've personally met Triton Noir at a couple Comic Cons where he was demo-ing his game. He initially started with "V-Commandos" after earning $100k in KS Funds to make his game a reality. I have never played his game.

That was even before the Assassin Creed Mini TableTop Games...

Looks like he's done good for himself!

Jacob wrote:
I have seen a game use this concept.

What concept are you referring to? Something in your game, something that @larienna brought up or something that I shared?!

It's just a very vague reference and doesn't explain in what context you are speaking about and how it relates?!

Sorry, Your idea of solo hidden movement. While the game supports Co-op, it also has a solo mode. I will assume it works about the same.

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Wed, 04/17/2024 - 21:53
#14
Jacob
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Fix Error

Jacob wrote:
I have seen a game use this concept. V-Sabotage is a game set in WWII where players assume the roles of stealthy commandos. In order to win, they have to complete a set objective and at least one team member must escape. Germans are controlled by the game. But the team can't go in guns a' blazing, trying to defeat all the Germans in the base. If the supply of enemy troops runs out, players lose the game!

If you are interested:
https://triton-noir.com/products/v-sabotage?variant=40424727085245

(FIX: all players must escape in a full game, barring the final terrain, says https://coopboardgames.com/cooperative-board-game-reviews/v-commandos-re.... In a quick game, only one must escape.)

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Thu, 04/18/2024 - 09:16
#15
larienna
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Yes, this is the Ninja game I

Yes, this is the Ninja game I was looking for !

I played V-Commando in the prototype phase, it was very interesting, but lack of depth and the entry points that spawn enemies constantly felt repetitive. Finally, the game was super expensive, so way above my budget (There was no even minis). But great ideas behind this game.

There is another ninja game that played solo. I really don't remember the name besides watching a video review from Sam Heiley(Not sure I spelled his name correctly). It felt like a dungeon crawler on a square grid where the ninja left a train behind them that the guards could follow.

I also worked on a solo ninja game. On last development, I was using a double layered grid, you could move on grid edges and nodes or on grid spaces. Time was a resources you need to spend carefully. Balancing taking risk by going faster, or investing more time to eliminate risks.

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Thu, 04/18/2024 - 17:08
#16
questccg
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Found a couple Ninja Board Games reviewed by Sam Healey!

larienna wrote:
...There is another ninja game that played solo. I really don't remember the name besides watching a video review from Sam Heiley(Not sure I spelled his name correctly). It felt like a dungeon crawler on a square grid where the ninja left a train behind them that the guards could follow...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kPko31ovqc

Ninja Squad??? Seems like it could be a SOLO, CO-OP, and Competitive game. I couldn't find any RELEVANT Ninja games but this one.

larienna wrote:
I also worked on a solo ninja game. On last development, I was using a double layered grid, you could move on grid edges and nodes or on grid spaces. Time was a resources you need to spend carefully. Balancing taking risk by going faster, or investing more time to eliminate risks.

Sounds interesting. I got a CLEVER idea for my "Midnight at the Museum" concept: 12 Game Tiles (REVERSIBLE). That means 24 Tiles in the GAME and that is utterly and totally FANTASTIC. Truly something that is remarkable because it adds a bunch of diversity to the "core" game. 24 Tiles is ENOUGH TBH. I was thinking about 18 Tiles and learnt that TGC only makes games with 12 Tiles per sheet. So 12 x 2 (reversible) = 24 Game Tiles and that's pretty neat!

Anyways it's just a CONCEPT ATM. I would need to work on it more to see how I can DEVELOP the idea into a REAL Game. TBD!

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Thu, 04/18/2024 - 23:16
#17
questccg
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Please share with us more about your idea...

Jacob wrote:
My game does use double hidden movement, although the hidden pieces are not involved in catching the other hidden pieces.

This means that each player has HIDDEN PIECES, right?!

Jacob wrote:
In order to win, players have to sneak their hidden pieces by their opponent while balancing exploring with their other forces and building new units.

When you say "building new units" what do you mean? It would be nice if you could explain what the THEME of your game is. Don't be paranoid about "people stealing your ideas"... Nobody will and if someone gets additional ideas from yours, I'll be willing to bet that 99.9% of the time, their game will never become a reality and that 99.9% of the time there version will be so different than yours that they are two (2) different games.

I just got a gut reaction when you REPLIED to my ASKING for more details in a very "abstract" method and not explaining what IS your game and the theme that goes with it.

Jacob wrote:
A game ends when a player successfully gets their scoring pieces past the enemy into a scoring area.

Does this imply some kind of Battling in the situation where you have BOTH "scoring" and "other" pieces (like those new units you talked briefly about?!

Jacob wrote:
Pieces are caught when a troop, by spending an action, checks a space or spaces for scoring pieces. If a piece is in the checked space, the piece is caught. Hints are also given if the checked space(s) neighbor a scoring piece's current location owned by another player. A caught piece must start over from the scoring area of the player who controls it. Scoring areas are separated in between a map of hexes.

Can you upload a picture of your board so we can understand what you are doing? It's kind of hard from the description to figure out. From reading this, I get the picture of players playing Football (Gridiron). Obviously I doubt this is the theme to your game... But scoring areas and moving hiddenly doesn't really get me to understand your idea.

I know you've said you've playtested it... I wonder what that feedback was like??? Critical or not, I hope you understood what the players have told you and hopefully have a way of improving upon or COMPLETING this design.

It's all very vague and I don't have a single idea what you are trying to achieve...

Regretfully.

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Thu, 04/18/2024 - 23:35
#18
questccg
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Like I shared about "Midnight at the Museum"...

I didn't need to go into exact detail HOW(?) I am going to control the "guards" and nor did I need to list out all the possible treasures you could steal... I just talked generally from the THEME of a "Cat Burglar" stealing from a National Museum... And that I wanted to use Square 3.5" x 3.5" inch tiles that are "reversible". And then you get a clear idea about what I am trying to do...

In your case, you mention a Hex Board and "End Zones" (To Win). How many "Scoring" pieces does each player have? How many players play the game? 2 and up??? Your Hex area makes me believe that AT MOST you can have six (6) Players.

Also it the game more of an "abstract" game ATM??? Or is it because ATM you don't want to disclose the theme?! I'm asking because you were very vague in your response.

Like I said, I shared my OWN version of what I could picture Designing as a "Hidden Movement" game... Boy can I picture it in my mind. The problem is that the artist that I would have in mind for this... Well she's not available for commissions and her prices are much too high ATM. She makes like $70k from Patreon alone and she has a website selling illustrations and postcards. So I doubt I'll be able to retain her services any longer. :-(

So please feel free to DISCUSS your design and share with us YOUR vision of it.

Sincerely.

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Fri, 04/19/2024 - 10:25
#19
larienna
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No, this is not the ninja

No, this is not the ninja game I was looking for.

I think it's "Rise of the Kage":

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/162480/rise-of-the-kage

I should also mention burgle bro which has a guard + stealth mechanism (resource management):

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/172081/burgle-bros

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Sat, 04/20/2024 - 12:18
#20
Jacob
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Another Clarification

questccg wrote:

This means that each player has HIDDEN PIECES, right?!

Yes, each player has three. However, I have also recently brainstormed and considered reducing this to just one per player, (of which there are two).

questccg wrote:
It would be nice if you could explain what the THEME of your game is.

The theme of my game is ninjas... It seems to be a saturated market however... BUT if I reduce my ninja count (these are the hidden pieces) to one, maybe I could make it some cool Trojan Horse sci-fi thing... But I digress.

Jacob wrote:
A game ends when a player successfully gets their scoring pieces past the enemy into a scoring area.

questccg wrote:
Does this imply some kind of Battling in the situation where you have BOTH "scoring" and "other" pieces (like those new units you talked briefly about?!

questccg wrote:
When you say "building new units" what do you mean?

Yes, there are "scoring pieces", ninjas, which do not battle. Their main objective is to maneuver past the "troops" or non hidden pieces. I.E. samurai, scouts, ect. These each have different rules determining where and how many spaces they can spot. (This means using an action chip to check for ninjas and flip a hex face up if face down, revealing what is underneath and opening it up for movement to all forces, instead of just ninjas.) [I may change it to no troops including ninjas can move onto face down spaces particularly if I change the amount of total ninjas to one.] Further, more troops can be produced on certain revealed spaces by a "Peasant" unit. (Not ninjas though.)

Jacob wrote:
Pieces are caught when a troop, by spending an action, checks a space or spaces for scoring pieces. If a piece is in the checked space, the piece is caught. Hints are also given if the checked space(s) neighbor a scoring piece's current location owned by another player. A caught piece must start over from the scoring area of the player who controls it. Scoring areas are separated in between a map of hexes.

questccg wrote:
Can you upload a picture of your board so we can understand what you are doing? It's kind of hard from the description to figure out. From reading this, I get the picture of players playing Football (Gridiron). Obviously I doubt this is the theme to your game... But scoring areas and moving hiddenly doesn't really get me to understand your idea.

I have recently finished a website. For now, it advertises the game. You can see photo of the board in the photo gallery. Here is the link: https://www.welltodowalrusgames.com/
(Be warned, desktop only. Some features do not resize for mobile or tablet.)

questccg wrote:
I know you've said you've playtested it... I wonder what that feedback was like??? Critical or not, I hope you understood what the players have told you and hopefully have a way of improving upon or COMPLETING this design.

Feedback seems good to okay. My main concerns are that the hidden movement is too slow and or difficult. I again may be able to fix by reducing the amount of ninjas and the places where they can move.

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Sat, 04/20/2024 - 20:34
#21
questccg
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3 Runs = 3 Points = 1st to do this is the Winner!

Jacob wrote:
...Feedback seems good to okay. My main concerns are that the hidden movement is too slow and or difficult. I again may be able to fix by reducing the amount of ninjas and the places where they can move.

Maybe I can HELP! Perhaps the "Hidden Movement" mechanic was too slow and a bit difficult. But how about you CHANGE it to ONE (1) Ninja who needs to complete THREE (3) Assassinations. There look to be THREE (3) Cards in the "End Zone", so why not make them three "characters", Like the Emperor, his Wife (Empress) and they younger son (end the Bloodline).

This way there is ONLY ONE (1) HIDDEN PIECE per player... And you can preserve the SCORING (first player to complete 3 Assassinations WINS). Easier to TRACK in ONE (1) ROUND and the game keeps on playing until the THIRD (3rd) Assassination is done!

I just feel like ONE (1) Player reaching the opposing side end the game TOO SUDDENLY. But if there are multiple PASSES, this makes it that MAYBE(!?) the opponent can catch-up to the previous player (the one in the lead) by capturing his Ninja and forcing them back to the START on their side of the board... And then the game is ANEW!

Could be something to consider. The game looks very nice TBH.

I'm just trying to help you KEEP the 3 Point System as three (3) distinct passes versus a MAYBE(!?) BORING 1 Point Victory system... Think about it and see if it works for you.

This will simplify the "Hidden Movement" mechanic all the while preserving the multiple factors to a Victory.

Just some of my early thoughts on the matter... Cheers!

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Sat, 04/20/2024 - 20:46
#22
questccg
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The End Zones ... How to make it more apparent...

Let's say that INITALLY there are THREE (3) END ZONE positions, one for each of the Ruling Family: Father, Mother and Son. You keep the BACKSIDE of the cards a different COLOR (Red or Blue, for example) and only once your Ninja reaches ONE of these, does it get flipped over to reveal the Assassinated Character...

Why is this of importance???

Well the idea is that as you assassinate there is LESS "End Zone" available. So in Round #1 (3), Round #2 (2) and Round #3 (1).

It makes it EASIER TO STOP the 3rd Assassination since there is only ONE (1) "End Zone" Area to capture...

That's why I say it is possible to have CATCH-UP mechanics which make the 3rd Round HARDER and the First (1st) one EASIER. You learn as you PLAY and you become better at getting to the End Zone as you try 1 to 2 to 3 tries to WIN the GAME.

Think about it... I think this MIGHT(!?) be a way of SOLVING your issue about the Hidden Movement being TOO HARD and this makes it more FAIR to catch-up with your opponent in one of the later Rounds (#2 or #3)...

Best.

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Sat, 04/20/2024 - 20:59
#23
questccg
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More ideas for you to think about...

Jacob wrote:
...Yes, there are "scoring pieces", ninjas, which do not battle. Their main objective is to maneuver past the "troops" or non hidden pieces. I.E. samurai, scouts, etc. These each have different rules determining where and how many spaces they can spot.

If you have PIECES like a "Chess Board" (not saying EXACTLY ... Hear me out!) and they move according to a preset movement PATTERN... And your Ninja does something similar too...

You can BLOCK opponents and create LANES towards SUCCESS.

I don't know how your pieces MOVE (the Ninja or others). But you could RECRUIT "Pawns" that only more ONE (1) SPACE "Forwards" but can be eaten by the SIDE (or angled side because you are using HEXES).

And maybe the Ninja can MOVE like a "Knight" (+3 forward and +1 Left or Right, etc.) I'm again just proposing IDEAS for your review. To see what MIGHT(!?) work for your game.

Don't worry I won't be offended if you don't like the ideas... I'm just sharing with you some of the ideas that I get off the TOP of my head... To see how you can KEEP your game INTACT but have other ideas you can implement.

Like For example: The "Bishop" piece can move DIAGONALLY and capture an opposing piece. Of course this could be another piece NAMED something else. Like the "Royal Guards" and you get the chance to earn TWO (2) of them.

I know this may feel a bit like "Chess"... But there is NOTHING wrong with an adaptation of a MODERN version of "Chess" with Hidden Movement and all kinds of Asian Pieces that protect the "Emperor" and his Family.

I think it's VERY different in CONCEPT and you get to KEEP that "Chess-LIKE" feel and earn and unlock pieces as you move.

Again just things to THINK about...

Sincerely.

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Sat, 04/20/2024 - 21:44
#24
questccg
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Alternate Victory and ... Something MORE!

Maybe each PLAYER has TWO (2) SCOUTS... An ALTERNATE VICTORY condition would be the remove BOTH SCOUTS from the area of play. So there's like a dichotomy in that there is a Hidden Ninja moving around and at the same time, players are TRYING to "protect" their OTHER Units in play.

Also if you don't like the Chess-like idea, you could go with pieces being able to move from "1" to "5" spaces each. That could be a bit more ABSTRACT and you would probably need to conduct a bunch of playtesting to see if this works or not...

Like I said, they're just IDEAS ... Proposing to you HOW(!?) you can add some variation to the game.

This is just something that I thought about: Alternate Victory.

Again if you don't like it... No worries. Just giving you some more ideas about what you can do and how you can make the game work (of course with a ton of playtesting and rules review...)

I'm not saying my ideas are all "Winning ones"... I'm just offering you a different perspective and how you could MAYBE(!?) play the game given some more ideas...

Cheers!

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Sat, 04/20/2024 - 21:52
#25
questccg
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Movement...

Can you clarify HOW(?) movement works in your game???

I was saying that "1" to "4" means that when you move Piece "A" it can move "1" space FORWARDS only and Piece "B" can move "2" spaces but DIAGONALLY in ONE DIRECTION, Piece "C" (The Ninja) can move "3" spaces in any linear direction (like a limited Rook), etc., etc.

I'd like to better understand so I can provide better ideas for you... Like how does each piece move and how does it affect the "Ninja"???

Right now I'm a bit stuck with CHESS... Or a limited version of Chess in which you can limit movement around the Hex area of the board. This is the ONLY Game that I know has movement on a Board given pieces that you move on it...

Regards.

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Sun, 04/21/2024 - 21:47
#26
questccg
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Spector Ops

In that game the "Secret Agent" (SA) which must visit "3" spots on the board to accomplish his/her mission, gets 4 Movement per turn and CAN move diagonally.

Why is this relevant???

Well it keeps the movement secret and allows the SA to sneak around without the need for say "Rolling Dice" (for example).

But this means that there are NO OTHER EXTRA hidden movement.

And it means that the SA focuses on his Position and the other players can visually see theirs on the board. Why is this important??? Because it's MUCH "simpler" than having a Hidden Unit and OTHER units in play UNLESS there is some level of "familiarity".

I'm still not sure about HOW(?) the Ninja moves around and obviously how the OTHER units in the game move too...

Again I'm not saying that it's a BAD design. I'm just saying: "It's complicated...!" And that can be ok or bad. Unless there is very clever mechanics for moving pieces around which I am unaware of ATM.

Just waiting on YOU to clarify Movement so I can get a better understanding HOW(???) the board interacts with the pieces and the Hidden Ninja...

Cheers.

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Sun, 04/21/2024 - 22:49
#27
questccg
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I have more IDEAS for you...

You could use THESE STANDIES with STICKERS:

Pawn Stickers for Standies

There could be Blue on one side and Red on the other. Hear me out!

All these PAWNS can be stuck together on each SIDE and then can move around the board. The "Assassin" is not known until he is REVEALED but can then get mixed into the "crowd" of pawns at a later time.

So it's like a NATURAL form of "Hidden". Then when he tries to HIDE again, you can mysteriously ALLOW him to "RE-POSITION" himself with some of the soldiers at his side... I don't know if I explained that correctly.

But basically you take 2 or 3 Pawns (with the Assassin) and mix then up in your hands and then you put them BACK in PLAY in whatever position you like.

I may be onto something... But you'd need to playtest it out and see HOW(!?) you could make it work.

If you LIKE this idea... Let me know and if I need to better explain it, also let me know!

Cheers.

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Mon, 04/22/2024 - 18:24
#28
Jacob
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Character Movement

questccg wrote:
Can you clarify HOW(?) movement works in your game???

I was saying that "1" to "4" means that when you move Piece "A" it can move "1" space FORWARDS only and Piece "B" can move "2" spaces but DIAGONALLY in ONE DIRECTION, Piece "C" (The Ninja) can move "3" spaces in any linear direction (like a limited Rook), etc., etc.

I'd like to better understand so I can provide better ideas for you... Like how does each piece move and how does it affect the "Ninja"???

Right now I'm a bit stuck with CHESS... Or a limited version of Chess in which you can limit movement around the Hex area of the board. This is the ONLY Game that I know has movement on a Board given pieces that you move on it...

Regards.

Amazing ideas! I am intrigued by the standee concept, something kind of like Stratego, (I think that is how you spell it...), but with multiple units in a space. Could be a cool concept for hiding a discovered ninja! Or the multiple runs thing could be cool. Maybe the ninja could be sabotaging the castle's east, west, and middle wings! Only thing being is that by round three, a player could cluster his units to make it near impossible to get by them at one space per movement per turn. (this could be fixed with a little brainstorming). As for movement, I used to use different movement rules, but now all pieces move one space in any direction, provided that space is face up (spotted).

But going back to custom movement rules could add to the intensity of the game, and I am willing to hear any ideas you might have. For a little help, here is what I have:

Piece 1: Pesant
Produces troops, moves one space, spots own space. (Only piece that can do this.)

Piece 2: Scout
Spots any one space next to current space.

Piece 3: Samurai
Spots any two spaces diagonally from current location

Piece 4: Archer
Spots any two spaces forward or backward from current location.
(think towards or away from castle, or scoring, spaces).

Piece 5: Ninja
Scoring piece, does not spot.

All pieces move one space in any direction, and can also warp around east and west ends of the board, provided the space any movement ends on is a spotted (face-up) space.

(Idea while typing: What if a piece can move over a face down space as long as it lands on a face up space?)

Grateful!
-Jacob

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Mon, 04/22/2024 - 20:17
#29
questccg
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Thank you for replying ... That helps a LOT!

When I saw the "Board", it immediately with the Clouds and all, it made me THINK of "Fog of War"! That to me spiked my curiosity a bit...

I know you think of it as "spotted" or "non-spotted" ... But I'm make the premise for "Fog of War" (FoW) vs. "revealed". And you have a piece that can CLEAR the FoW and one piece that can PRODUCE it. A sort of Flip-Flop mechanic.

Why???

Let me explain more about my thoughts ... And then you can tell me what you think...!

What if "FoW" was the DEFAULT status of Board Tiles and acted like a "smokescreen".

You bring up "Stratego" ... And while I was NOT thinking about that game... I was more thinking about "Chess" and that your pieces could be similar... But I guess I see the parallel with "Stratego"... And maybe you could make it more similar.

What I mean is this:

Quote:
There are seven (7) unique pieces in-play. And go something as follows:

Scout = Allows you to spot an adjacent space clearing the FoW. The Scout may move one (1) Space and has a STRENGTH of "1", weakest unit can be conquered by all opposing pieces EXCEPT the "Assassin" ("A").

Archer = Allows you to spot UP TO TWO (2) SPACES clearing the FoW. The Archer may also only move one (1) Space and has STR = "2". Still pretty weak but CANNOT be conquered by Scouts or the "Assassin" ("A").

Guard = Allows you to spot ONE (1) SPACE clearing the FoW. The Guard may move one (1) Space and has a STR = "3". He CANNOT be conquered by Scouts, Archers and the "Assassin" ("A").

Mystic = Cannot spot and may move THREE (3) SPACES that are spotted. His STR = "3" and CAN FLIP to "FoW" any tile he moves over. He may be defeated by a Guard or Emperor.

Dragon = Allows you to spot UP TO THREE (3) SPACES clearing the FoW. He may move three (3) Spaces and has a STR = "4". He can be conquered by an opposing "Mystic" and "Emperor". He can move in and through FoW also.

Emperor = Cannot spot and may move on (1) Space into an area without "FoW" ONLY. His STR = "5" and can only be conquered by the "Assassin" ("A"). He can conquer all of the OTHER unit...

Assassin = Cannot spot and may move up to three (3) Spaces and can move through FoW (as if it was cleared). His STR = "0" and can only conquer the "Emperor".

Since you mentioned "Stratego", I was thinking of BLENDING "Chess + Stratego". You would also have FIVE (5) Movement points per turn. Something like this...

Each Player gets:

- 1x Emperor: The goal is to conquer/capture this piece.
- 1x Dragon: Can be captured by an opposing Mystic.
- 2x Mystic: With mysticism you can restore "FoW" to the board.
- 2x Guard: Middle of the road piece balances between weak and strong pieces.
- 4x Archer: Good for SPOTTING a longer distance (up to 2 Spaces).
- 5x Scout: Basic unit for SPOTTING on spot away.

- 1x Assassin: can move in "FoW" and can kill the opposing Emperor.

If the Assassin is SPOTTED, he returns HOME to one of the areas which there is no "FoW"...

And you would have "16 Pieces" like Chess but they would work closer to "Stratego" and you would need to reveal "8" Hexes at the START of the game.

There is no more RUNS (like I said three attempts), there is only ONE (1) Victory PATH and that is to conquer the opposing Emperor...

This seems TOTALLY CHAOTIC... But I would encourage you to TRY it... And see what could happen. You also have CARDS in-hand... Those can be "Take-That" cards which can swing the capture of an opposing piece (for example).

Take this all with a Grain of Salt. I'm just trying to help PERFECT the pieces and how they relate and how you USE "FoW" to your benefit.

Anyhow ... No worries if this doesn't FEEL like it's in the RIGHT direction. I just had to blend the two genres and come out with something ORIGINAL for you to PONDER and THINK about.

Really that's all this is... And exercise to help you determine what WORKS for YOU and YOUR game... And gives you a different "perspective".

Cheers mate!

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Mon, 04/22/2024 - 20:29
#30
questccg
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Furthermore...

I am thinking that "SPOTTING" is ONE (1) Action but works on the UNIT in a TILE.
If there are two (2) in one tiles, the player must ASK which UNIT to reveal... (Choice).

And then I am thinking about CLEARING is a SECOND (2nd) Action which works on the TILES. And this ACTS as a way to FLIP the "FoW".

If there is "FoW" ... You CANNOT SPOT that TILE.

Something SIMPLE like that...

Note #1: I guess this should be enough IDEAS to work off of and see where you can TAKE the game. No worries about PLAYTESTING... If you want to GREAT... If NOT... That's okay too. I just wanted to share some ideas and see if you can work something out that makes sense and is FUN to play.

That's enough IDEAS for now... I'll let you think about it. And see what you can make WORK and what you'll pass on.

And IF you have questions, please feel free to ask or even if it's to share something else you might be stuck on ... No worries. The forum is open to you and feel free to post whatever the status is about your game and whether you need some more ideas to help you think about the game further.

Cheers.

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