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How easy RPS-9 is handled

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questccg
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Monster Keep: Sample Card - Template

Okay so from my art link (http://www.bgdf.com/node/17272), you can see a sample "Wizard" from the Order Clan.

The RPS diagram is in the Top-Right hand corner.

Let's take a look at HOW this simple diagram gives you the ENTIRE information you need to make a RPS decision.

  • Middle: "beats", this card trumps that clan: in our case Order beats Chaos.
  • Top: "attacks", this card attacks those clans: in our case Life and Storm.
  • Bottom: "duels", this card duels those clans: in our case Frost and Earth.
  • Self: "duels", this card duels itself: in our case Order.

So that is SIX (6) out of nine (9). What about the three (3) remaining ones? Again easy as pie:

  1. Is "beaten" by Tech.
  2. Is "attacked" by Fire and Death.

And VOILA, all the RPS-9 rules easily decoded with the mini chart!

Pretty cool, eh?

X3M
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questccg wrote: Pretty cool,

questccg wrote:

Pretty cool, eh?

But confusing at first.

After rereading 5 times. I understood how to read the symbols.
The word duel is confusing.

Ok, so I too now know the 6 out of 9 types.
But those last 3. How does a player know if they are not displayed?
All 3 are indeed bad for the wizard. But which one is the worst? I can't tell by watching the symbols.

questccg
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You know 6 out of 9

That means that there are three (3) remaining.

One is super-bad for the Wizard (as you say), because he gets beaten. For that all you need is to remember the "beats" logic:

Order->Chaos->Fire->Frost->Life->Death->Earth->Storm->Tech->Order

It's super easy to remember this with a little practice.

So therefore you KNOW of the three (3) remaining, one is your "beats". In the case of the Wizard, it's "Tech".

Now all that remains is two (2), again knowing all nine (9) Clans helps you to identify that Fire and Death are missing. Logically it follows that these two (2) "attack" the Wizard!

I know it's not so "obvious" but remember you are dealing with a very complicated RPS-9. Any way I present it to players, it looks difficult to remember. That mini chart goes a LONG way in explaining HOW the RPS-9 works...

Note: "Duels" means that both players get to attack each other, the weakest player goes first (according to their levels).

questccg
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RPS-9

Here is the RPS-9. It's still very confusing to understand. The "mini chart" goes a long way in simplifying the relevant content for your cards.

I made it a little simpler because the "beats" go AROUND the RPS. That means it it MUCH EASIER trying to remember them because it's more or less logical.

The old RPS-9 that I had designed was pretty "random" in how the relationships were being handled. In "Monster Keep" you can remember them rather easy because of the "logical" order!

questccg
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RPS-9 Table

Here is the TABULAR version of the RPS-9. A little clearer but it takes up a lot of space. This is the data used by the "mini chart" on each card. Knowing the cards and the relationships is good - because it gives you an advantage. But from the cards themselves, you already know the "you attack" relationships, allowing a player to more easily decide which card to play against an opponent...

Still confused?

questccg
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When YOU attack

Most of the time, players are struggling to decide WHICH card to play in order to "attack" his opponent. The "mini chart" shows you ALL relationships that serve that purpose. From "beats" to "attack" to "duels", you pretty much know what will happen if you play a specific card.

In "Monster Keep" you are "reacting" to the three (3) cards put out by your opponent. Each round consists of one (1) player playing three (3) cards face down and then revealing the cards to each of his opponent (one at a time).

The game plays four (4) players (I still need to work on this...)

So when Player #1 reveals his first card, the first opponent has to figure out what card to play to defeat him. Again he may not want to kill that card immediately, he may just want to sufficiently damage the unit such that the second player can defeat it more easily.

Update: Player #1 (with the three cards) earns +2 Victory Points for each unit still alive (so 2x 3 = 6 Victory Points maximum). The other players each earn +1 Victory Point if their unit is still alive.

So there is DEEP strategy at play. Do you use most of your tokens to defeat all your opponents? Do you only attack the cards put out by Player #1 (three cards)? Do you risk taking some damage? Do you use your "beats" card knowing you will not be able to use it against someone else?

For a duel game - it really SOUNDS FUN. But I have not yet playtested it. I will be trying to do so today or tomorrow. Got to design the B&W cards and then print and cut them to see if the game is GOOD...

We shall see...

X3M
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While the circle of arrows

While the circle of arrows looks logical and balanced.
It is the table that will give the best information. And thus for me the least confusing.
But I am just one opinion. Others should give their opinion too.

When you place the effects on your card. It simply means that you have a quicker glance in the game. But still a confusing one for starting players.

***

Have you thought of using the sides of the cards?
Where on the left side, your wizard has the word order in a pink box. On the top left position. About 1/9th of the total left side.

On the right side, you get (in symbols and/or colours):
"duels"
"beats"
"attacked by"
"duels"
"attacks"
"attacked by"
"duels"
"attacks"
"beaten by"

If your wizard is facing a storm card. Then the yellow box with storm is on the 8th position. Simply lay the cards next to each other, and the player can see that the wizard "attacks" the storm card.

In that case, the players don't have to know the table either. They simply can place the cards next to each other to know the effect they have on each other.

questccg
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That won't work...

Although inventive, that will not work - since you will need to reveal your cards to your opponent before deciding which card to use. Also you would need to be constantly lining up cards to know what relationship is accurate.

Your hand only has five (5) cards. Keeping those cards secret from your opponents is very important, since you will either use or draw from these five (5) for your units (if it's your round).

But I understand your idea...

It just would make too much comparison and force players to reveal their hands - making it difficult to play strategically.

Again your idea has merit, it's just not how I "envisioned" players playing the game - "Ok got to see which card is better - need to line up these two or three cards to figure out which one is best..." - doesn't seem very cool...

X3M
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You got a point there. Never

You got a point there. Never thought of the constant lining up.
Which explains why my buddies thought of my card variant as a very bad idea.

questccg
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But... like I said

The idea has "merit". Perhaps it could be applicable to another type of game. One where secrecy is not important. For example a "minis" skirmish type of game where you build a "squadron" and send it out to battle it's opponent.

Since both "squadrons" are known because of their respective "minis", lining up card when two units get into range could work.

So I wouldn't say the idea is not good. Just in my case doesn't work very well. But it a "minis" skirmish type of battle where the units are on the board and visible to both players, using an RPS-9 with your lining up technique could be very interesting!

Update: In a "minis" game, you could know from the "minis" the type of unit that is part of the squadron. But only when you resolve the cards by "matching" do you really know who has the actual advantage.

Your idea about lining up would work in that context. Moreover you could simplify it and use a RPS-5 or RPS-7. Perhaps 5 is a little low - but it still can give a good MIX to a "minis" skirmish game...

X3M
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Long story short (deleted 3

Long story short (deleted 3 more blocks):

I do have one example laying here with a 3x3x3-RPS system. Where I have 9 numbers on the right side. And on the left side 3 coloured boxes. Meaning you have to find yourself the 3 factors for the damage effect. But that was rather insufficient. And more over, it could not be expanded.

It was back then when I said, NO, to mechanical RPS for my own designs. And went with natural through math instead.

But yeah, for a minis game it will work, no doubt.

I am curious about the rest of your game though. It still sounds fun.

questccg
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Could be a business!

X3M wrote:
I am curious about the rest of your game though. It still sounds fun.

Yes I have to admit the game SOUNDS fun. But I really need to playtest it to actually see HOW much so. This is supposed to be a "filler"-type game with a small deck of twelve (12) cards.

What I LIKE about the idea - is the electronic or online component: I want players to build their deck using their cell phones (or Home Internet). It's also the way players can BUY NEW cards! That part really excites me.

Why? Because I can have a small, filler-type game which allows you to build and buy decks online. It's like having a "catalog" for your game according to the cards you enter (each card has a unique 12 digit code).

To me that's really cool. If the F-ken Post Office wasn't so expensive, I could maybe make a business out of this. But the shipping at the moment prevents this from happening. I need a signature - for proof-of-delivery. Otherwise there is no way of knowing if letters (I can ship the cards in very small packages) arrive at their destination.

But I could easily Kickstart the game - with an option: you buy 1 deck ($15), 2 decks ($30) or 3 decks ($45). Then when the website goes live, players can log in, build their deck and I can ship it CUSTOM. Would really be awesome (if the Post Office prices were not astronomical)!

For a filler-type the game has a lot going for it.

However I still need to test the basic fundamentals and see if it is "as you put it" FUN!

I'll keep you posted as to my progress.

Update: It only costs $5.75 to mail within the US for a registered letter. In Canada, going to the US, it costs $25.00! What is wrong with our Postal Service!!!

X3M
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Shipping costs are also

Shipping costs are also depending on the value of the money of your country. And of course where you ship too. And the agreements that the countries have.

But $25 to a neighbouring country is indeed ridiculous.
You would almost drive it yourself to the US when the time arrives.

How much is it for you to send to Europe or Asia?

***

An unique 12 digit code. That sounds familiar :)
Doest this mean that you have an unwritten rule somewhere that balances the game when all combinations are used?

But that plan might bound to fail.
What do you about the art for a card?
Do players know how to design their own card?
Or can they only pick a number?
And are there cards that are bound, never to be used because they fail their function in the game?

Well, I only had bad experiences with that cool idea of letting others design. Until now, there is only ONE other person that is allowed too. Since he actually knows what he is doing.

questccg
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No BS

X3M wrote:
But $25 to a neighbouring country is indeed ridiculous.

I agree, $25.00 is crazy. I can see if you are sending a package maybe $15.00. But $25.00 for a letter?!?!

X3M wrote:
How much is it for you to send to Europe or Asia?

Cheaper $20.00. Don't ask - maybe I am getting the WRONG prices online.

X3M wrote:
An unique 12 digit code. That sounds familiar :)

Yes, I am using Chaotic TCG's 12 digit code-style. But I'm only using it to build decks and buy cards. No online playing like Chaotic. Just the deck-building experience online should be cool!

X3M wrote:
What do you about the art for a card?
Do players know how to design their own card?
Or can they only pick a number?
And are there cards that are bound, never to be used because they fail their function in the game?

No the cards are predefined - but will appear according to the cards you specify (12 digit codes). It goes something like this:

  • 6 Common cards: 3 for primary Clan and 3 for secondary Clan.
  • 6 Uncommon cards: 2 for primary, 4 connected to primary Clan.
  • 3 Rare cards: at random (per clan - per price...)

This is my *NEW* structure: 15 cards. Works also (like the old 12). But you get a few more cards (3 to be exact). Rare cards vary according to price. You have a choice between "low"/"medium"/"high". Obviously most people would what the "high" cards - but it depends on how much you want to spend in $$$ (low = $4-6, Medium = $6-8 and High = $8-10)!

Something like that.

Instead of wasting money on booster decks with useless mana cards, non-necessary uncommon cards and the wrong rare cards, our system will allow you to target and BUY the card you want.

In a way it's pricier - in another way it's way less expensive than buying boosters and hoping for a specific card. Plus no wasting of cards: you get EXACTLY what you want. No BS.

X3M
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The only thing bothering me

The only thing bothering me is that better cards cost more. This means everyone goes for the best? Or not at all. At least, it is what MtG players do.
Or do you have some mechanics stopping this event?

If you, somehow have this in check. Thus players need to mix it up for the best results.
How do you trigger new players not to make the mistake of buying only the most expensive cards?
You might loose them immediately after the first wave of selling.
I think you should strongly advice them not to buy only expensive cards. Maybe even a second warning when they compiled a deck that doesn't really work.
And perhaps a suggestion of a certain card in combination with cards that they have selected.

Sorry, if I ask difficult (or stupid) questions.

questccg
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Good questions

X3M wrote:
The only thing bothering me is that better cards cost more. This means everyone goes for the best? Or not at all. At least, it is what MtG players do. Or do you have some mechanics stopping this event?

There are a few mechanics that prevent you from adding only the strongest cards.

A> POT Luck goes to the player with the LOWEST revealed level card.
B> The Deck-Building website should BALANCE out a deck.
C> The notion of "Beats" (a low level card can beat a high level card).

X3M wrote:
If you, somehow have this in check. Thus players need to mix it up for the best results. How do you trigger new players not to make the mistake of buying only the most expensive cards?

There are RULES about HOW the deck is built. For now it's not overly complicated and can be done manually also. What that means is that you can build a deck knowing the rules without the need for the website.

But the website allows you to BUY more cards and discover newly released cards (*NEW*). So if you have "Fighters using Short Swords", an upgrade may occur and you could get one (1) "Fighter using Long Sword"!

X3M wrote:
You might loose them immediately after the first wave of selling.

Well we can't Keep (pun intended!) everyone happy! :P

X3M wrote:
I think you should strongly advice them not to buy only expensive cards. Maybe even a second warning when they compiled a deck that doesn't really work.

The system is designed such that you have 6 common cards, 6 uncommon cards and 3 rare cards. Common cards cost $1.00, uncommon cards cost $1.50 and rare cards (it depends). If you do the math it cost about $20.00+ to buy a deck. It's pretty affordable.

X3M wrote:
And perhaps a suggestion of a certain card in combination with cards that they have selected.

The website would of course "guide" the buyer. And present HOW to build a deck manually (without the website). Again this is still uncertain, I still need to do MORE playtesting. Including testing the POT Luck at the END of a round.

X3M wrote:
Sorry, if I ask difficult (or stupid) questions.

No worries - all questions are valid. I've done my best to address them!

Let me know if there are other concerns...

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